Episode 11
The Power of Presence: A Deep Dive into Mindful Practices
Tracking Wisdom
Season 1 Episode 11
The Power of Presence: A Deep Dive into Mindful Practices
Recorded - 11/21/22
This podcast episode delves into the intricacies of personal spiritual practices, emphasizing the importance of mindfulness and self-awareness in daily life. The conversation highlights the significance of recognizing the moment before reacting to emotions, particularly fear, and making conscious choices instead. Both speakers share their unique journeys, with one exploring various spiritual traditions and the other focusing on a more individualized approach. They discuss the value of community in spiritual growth and the impact of their practices on personal well-being. As they reflect on their experiences, the episode encourages listeners to embrace their own paths and to find meaning through introspection and connection with the divine.
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Transcript
How would you define your practice?
Speaker B:Primarily, it's been recognizing attempts to recognize the feelings of fear, which are very recognizable now, I guess.
Speaker B:Okay, so the start of it was even just the awareness that this is something I should be paying attention to.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Meaning I can choose to feel the burn instead of reacting to it, which is what we've been brought up to do.
Speaker B:It's what our habits have always been and are still ingrained in me, that reactive something happens, and now I'm pissed.
Speaker B:And then for a brief moment, and maybe this is not unique to me, but maybe it's not as prevalent, but I've always found, at least in my more recent recollections, that there's always a spark, a moment before I say the thing that I'm not supposed to say, that says, don't do that.
Speaker B:And I think about, I mean, something you can relate to are some of the times back in the day at work where it's just like, I know I shouldn't be saying this, and I feel like there's no other way to communicate, where, of course, there is a but in that split moment where I had the feeling and I had the initial resistance to think about what I was going to say, I chose to say it.
Speaker B:And once that cats out of the bag, it just flows.
Speaker B:And so I'm really trying to catch myself before I let it out, because I know once I let it out, it's going to be a huge thing, and it's a daily thing.
Speaker A:So I think the fact that you are aware that you can perceive that instant, that you can perceive that instant when there's a more altruistic impulse is significant.
Speaker A:That's something that we're taught to work towards.
Speaker A:So you've accomplished something.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Already that you have that awareness.
Speaker A:Making the choice is hard.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and as we've been saying, so you fail 80% of the time.
Speaker A:I guess you got to be trite.
Speaker A:Like, we have to look at it.
Speaker A:Like the.
Speaker A:The baseball hitter.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:You fail most of the time.
Speaker A:That's all.
Speaker A:That's all there is to it.
Speaker A:You fail most of the time.
Speaker A:But you try, you know, Gretzky, you miss 100% of the shots.
Speaker A:You don't take.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you try, and I think you can take, be encouraged, just that you have that recognition and give yourself credit for that, and you're able to say, every time, I didn't follow it.
Speaker A:Like, I saw it, but I didn't follow it.
Speaker A:Oh, I saw it, but I didn't follow it.
Speaker A:Oh, I saw it, and I followed it.
Speaker A:Yay.
Speaker B:You know, and to have that introspection, I guess, without judgment, which would go to the.
Speaker B:The mindfulness thing, but also was a big part of the way of mastery that I've been listening to, is look back on the times and just recall, even for the day, write down the times you were successful and the times you weren't, and just look at them free of judgment, recognizing, oh, that was kind of a silly way to do that.
Speaker B:That wasn't important.
Speaker A:So, yes, so, so I keep on bringing back, um, the householders Vinnia, which.
Speaker B:I wrote down because I feel like I need to look into that.
Speaker A:Okay, so this is a book that I had the insight meditation sent society in.
Speaker A:Barry, mass.
Speaker A:Had a book club event.
Speaker A:You read the book, and the author came and had I tell you about this?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I've heard you talk about this book.
Speaker B:You may have specifically.
Speaker A:So the author went on Zoom and, you know, had a conversation with the moderator and then took questions, and it was an amazing, great session.
Speaker A:So, the book, it's very hardcore practice.
Speaker A:Basically, the premise is, as a buddhist practitioner, if you are an ordained monk, you have extremely explicit instructions of what to do and how to behave every minute of your day, to guide your practice, to grow, to develop.
Speaker A:Laypeople don't have that.
Speaker A:Laypeople at best.
Speaker A:I mean, people do crazy things.
Speaker A:Like this guy, the guy who wrote it, he went on a three month retreat in, I think, sri Lanka every year for who knows how many years.
Speaker A:I mean, that's like, who can do that?
Speaker A:A three month.
Speaker A:And this is a silent retreat.
Speaker A:Like, three months of silent retreat.
Speaker A:So anyway, he said.
Speaker A:But even he, with all of that, felt that his practice was insufficient, because even though three months, the other nine months, he wasn't on retreat, what am I doing?
Speaker A:He felt like he was losing ground, and so he developed the householders of an vinaya, corresponding to the Bhikkhu's vinia, the monastic guidelines.
Speaker A:He wrote this book of the householder's guidelines.
Speaker A:So here is how you can practice every minute of every day.
Speaker A:And so there are a couple things.
Speaker A:So, one thing is conversation with God mentions this, but doesn't tell you how to do it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And that's where I was like, aha.
Speaker A:The householder's vignette does.
Speaker A:The author says, if you come from a different tradition, you can still use this to apply.
Speaker A:So I invite you to.
Speaker A:I would like to look at it.
Speaker A:And going back to exactly what we were just talking about, where you have the impulse, and then you have the decision, and then you look back on it.
Speaker A:That is the practice.
Speaker A:I can't remember the name of the sutra, but the book is built around this Sutra practice.
Speaker A:What do you call it?
Speaker A:I mean, basically this discipline of.
Speaker A:It's exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker A:It's precisely what you're talking about.
Speaker A:So it's like recognizing that there's a choice.
Speaker A:Well, for every.
Speaker A:Okay, this is why it's so hardcore.
Speaker A:For every thought, word and action, for every act of thought, speech and deed you consider before, during and after, whether it is to the benefit of you, someone else, or both, that's the entire practice.
Speaker B:But to do that.
Speaker A:But to do that.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Of course.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:So my practice right now is.
Speaker A:So fortunately, I got to the end of book, and he says, you can pick any one of these because he has 15 categories of householder's life.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Like eating, working, exercise, like.
Speaker A:And at the end of the book he says, so you can pick just one to work on.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, thank God.
Speaker A:And for me, it's speech, because I have a big problem with speech.
Speaker A:But that's exactly what you were just talking about.
Speaker A:So the other thing that I want to talk about.
Speaker A:Oh, so in terms of forgiveness, Tara Brock has written many books, and many of them deal with in part.
Speaker A:I mean, it's not the whole book.
Speaker A:Forgiveness practice.
Speaker A:So she has, I don't know if I've introduced her before, but she is a licensed therapist practicing for many decades, and a meditation teacher, a renowned meditation teacher, but works with clients using meditation.
Speaker A:And forgiveness is a huge topic.
Speaker A:And so she has written many times, many different variations of practice on forgiveness.
Speaker A:And the way her books are written, she'll have basically a compelling case study.
Speaker A:Like, my client Ann came to me with this.
Speaker A:This is what she was going through.
Speaker A:And then she talks through what happened, and she gives a guided meditation on that topic of how to work through it.
Speaker A:So I'm really only now reading a whole book of hers.
Speaker A:So I'm finishing, like, the first book of hers that I've read, although I've known of her for decades, I used to listen to a lot of audio from her back when we had cassette tapes.
Speaker A:So, so I'm familiar with her.
Speaker A:So anyway, was there anything else you want to say about your practice?
Speaker B:Actually, the other key component I find with my practice, and I mean, this is something that specifically resonates with me.
Speaker B:You know, I don't know if there's, I mean, any practice has to be a practice that resonates with you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so communing with the outside, the outdoors in nature, like, that's a huge part of my life.
Speaker B:It's a huge part of what not only brings me joy and calmness.
Speaker B:Is that the word?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:To my spirit and my mind is to be outside.
Speaker B:I feel truly kind of claustrophobic inside.
Speaker B:I do not like being inside at all.
Speaker B:And so a big part of my practice is intentionally giving myself some time outside every day as best I can, you know, and it's, you win some, you lose some.
Speaker B:And I would probably, I would go out on a limb to say that the days that I don't get out as much are going to be my harder days because I'm already feeling that tension and that stress just being inside.
Speaker B:And so that is a big piece of it.
Speaker B:And recently, in fact, as recently as yesterday, I started to recognize how impactful, in a detrimental way, the hubbub of everything.
Speaker B:I'm on YouTube and I'm scrolling through my feed and I'm looking at all this stuff.
Speaker B:I'm already, even from the thumbnails, getting, like, anxious and feeling that tension in my stomach.
Speaker B:I'm like, why am I, this clearly isn't bringing me happiness or joy here.
Speaker B:Why am I indulging in this?
Speaker B:And so I made the conscious decision to, I had been listening to the way mastery and it had been bringing me peace and I was able to just, it's meditative in and of itself because I'm listening to it and I can kind of just get in that brain space and kind of hear it.
Speaker B:But it's not bringing all that negativity and, you know, it's not political posts.
Speaker B:It's not, you know, the things that I do like, it's like, oh, I've been watching, like, the restoring these old rusty knife kind of things and that, I mean, that's in the creative vein.
Speaker B:I like those kinds of things and bringing back the beauty and the restoration.
Speaker B:But other than those, like, almost everything on there was just really negative provoking.
Speaker B:And I have stopped watching the news a long time ago.
Speaker B:By and large.
Speaker B:I go, I have one news station that I put enough faith in to just kind of breeze through.
Speaker B:And I mean, there are local stations, so it's not, that's why I was more inclined to do it.
Speaker B:But I did look, and from some website greats, all the news stations as, like, either it calls out the political biases or not kind of thing, so you can kind of evaluate where your sources of information are and what the biases are.
Speaker B:And this one was a very kind of centrist perspective, so it made me feel a little bit more comfortable.
Speaker B:I do know some things that are going out on in the world, but I check it once or twice a day and it's usually because I go to look at the weather and.
Speaker B:But the point is, is that I've limited my interaction with that world as best I can.
Speaker B:And that helps me to refocus on what I want to do, which is, you know, getting away from all that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, it's difficult.
Speaker A:I mean, news is a huge challenge and I want to be engaged, but I'm finding the same thing.
Speaker A:I cannot.
Speaker A:Like, I'll go peer periodically, spend, you know, half an hour, an hour and then just be really, like, really wound up.
Speaker A:And of course, the goal is, for me, is mindful engagement or engaged Buddhism, where we bring our ideals and our practices to interacting with these really challenging things.
Speaker A:But I'm not there yet.
Speaker B:I'm in the avoidance phase at the moment.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, but we have to be realistic about our capability.
Speaker A:So just to give you a title, radical awareness by Tara Brock, that's the book I'm reading right now, which I think is very appropriate to what we're talking about.
Speaker A:She has a lot, and I think they're all kind of similar and good, but I think this is one of the more recent ones.
Speaker A:So I've become just very much more on indoors.
Speaker A:Like, I didn't used to.
Speaker A:I used to.
Speaker A:I grew up walking outside, but the pandemic has been, like, a really good excuse for me to kind of cater to my more inside, isolated, sheltered, claustrophobic self.
Speaker B:And that's the point, I think, is that if I drove, if I derive peace and happiness from being inside, I would be inclined to be inside.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It is very uncomfortable for me, and it's only gotten progressively more pronounced.
Speaker B:And I don't think it has.
Speaker B:I think it's just my awareness of it and being able to identify it.
Speaker B:And it's something that runs in my family, my dad especially, and us three boys all have intense drive to be outside.
Speaker B:And that's why I had to mention originally, you know, in August, because I spent so much time outside.
Speaker B:I had two full weeks of vacation with nieces and nephews to, you know, my family and her family.
Speaker B:But I spent so much time, time outside the.
Speaker B:That whole month.
Speaker B:I was curious how much of that had impact.
Speaker B:I'm sure it had some, but if nothing else, it set me up for success.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:It set me up in the right mindset to be as loving and compassionate as I could be.
Speaker B:Not my best self when I don't get my exercise in my fresh air.
Speaker A:Your fresh air?
Speaker B:I had written down something, something that came on my mind earlier today, which was so I've historically.
Speaker B:How do I phrase this?
Speaker B:There are times when thoughts flow through words very easily and without effort and land exactly as they're supposed to be.
Speaker B:But most of the time, especially in some of my more profound thoughts that I have, I have a real hard time translating them through to word to come out in the way that I'm thinking them.
Speaker B:And I to the point where I've often really wished, but not really wish for, like, a way that I could just have something take my thoughts as I'm saying them, because even if I go to type them or write them, I'm having to translate it.
Speaker B:But the conversation is just going on in my head, and I wish that that could get captured somehow.
Speaker B:I don't want to put something in my brain, but I wish otherwise I would be able to be.
Speaker B:And I was trying to reconcile that a bit and, like, what that might mean.
Speaker B:And I just had this thought about, you know, that the thought is that pure, loving, spirit self is having the thought, but then I'm having to try and use the egoic mind to translate it out.
Speaker B:And it filters through that, which then brings in all the fearful things and things like, oh, well, if I say this, either, is it gonna somebody gonna think I'm crazy or think, or, you know, is it.
Speaker B:Am I feeling fear of loss or, you know, lack or.
Speaker B:Oh, you know, that's my idea.
Speaker B:Or something along that line, something in the.
Speaker B:That kind of egoic mind.
Speaker B:Um, so that was just like this.
Speaker B:Something I wrote out was that, you know, the thought to the words, and the thought is the perfect thought, but then trying to get it out has to go through that filter.
Speaker B:And I guess if we can somehow move the filter or open the filter, get that filter out of the way, maybe.
Speaker B:And I guess it's another way of articulating the idea that if we can let go of those, let go of attachment to the outcome and just be open to the flow of the spirit through us and be that conduit that we will be able to communicate those ideas more effectively.
Speaker B:Just a thought, something that came up today.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, yeah, it's inhibitions about.
Speaker A:It's judging what you're judging the words.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:And it's inhibitions, which makes me.
Speaker A:Not that I think this is a solution that just makes me think of alcohol reducing inhibition.
Speaker B:I think there's a level to that.
Speaker B:Not using alcohol, but there has been times where I think just the right amount of inhibition has allowed me to communicate more effectively without the fear.
Speaker A:But then.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:But then it goes too far sometimes.
Speaker A:Yes, we all know that.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it is.
Speaker B:It is a tricky.
Speaker B:It may be the trickiest thing that we need to try and figure out is that way to move beyond that habit and that earthly connection to events and things around us and being in remembrance that we are more.
Speaker B:And our judgments are our judgments.
Speaker B:They don't need to know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Kind of distinguishing between the divine, the profane.
Speaker A:So in terms of.
Speaker A:I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions about practice because I actually want to tell.
Speaker A:I want to tell a story about my practice eventually, but.
Speaker A:So where are you with.
Speaker A:Where do you feel like you are with your practice?
Speaker A:So you said you have, you know, this intention to make the right choices and you're working on it and you're feeling it.
Speaker A:I heard some frustration of, like, you wish you could make the right choice more often.
Speaker A:Kind of, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, so my current state reaction would be that even though I know in my mind, through, you know, what I've been trying to learn, that I need to, in order to be successful, I will have to be able to forgive myself those things and be okay with falling short.
Speaker B:As far as my practice, how do I feel?
Speaker B:I feel like, well, I mean, obviously I have ups and downs.
Speaker B:I would say I've been on this path for, I mean, only really a few years, as far as my current belief structure or understanding of the way things are and trying to practice reminding myself of what reality is and what reality is.
Speaker B:And that was quite a while.
Speaker B:Well, I mean, quite a while.
Speaker B:A couple of years of really trying to focus on reminding myself to the point where when I think about it, that's what I think, like reconditioning my habits.
Speaker B:And then I think, I mean, certainly the event in August or the.
Speaker B:The feeling I felt in August, I would liken to the realization that you kind of experienced recently, which was this kind of epiphany, this, this really meaningful experiential moment where it's a knowingness.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's now, you had mentioned success.
Speaker B:Actually, I meant I was going to say something on that before, but.
Speaker B:And you were saying you can look to writings of other people's successes, but I think to be really successful, you need to see that success in yourself.
Speaker B:You have to have a moment where you can identify this was a successful moment, this is what it could feel like.
Speaker B:And now I have something tangible that I can start to pursue.
Speaker B:And even in the moment, I recognized that there was something special about that moment, but I didn't understand what it was necessarily or how that all became.
Speaker B:So certainly, you know, within months of right now has been a transitional moment in where I think I am on my practice.
Speaker B:So I think that was a milestone.
Speaker A:So I think the question, I mean, I think maybe this is what I think would be of interest because, I mean, I think kind of to capture the intent of what we're doing.
Speaker A:I had been thinking about trying different practices.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We had talked about that.
Speaker A:But I think the most direct way is I was going to ask you, what's your history of practice and how do you develop your practice and how do you look for the next thing?
Speaker A:And it sounds like you have, like, a good path to describe the path that you have taken to where you are.
Speaker A:And I know I do as well.
Speaker A:Like, I'm looking back at.
Speaker A:Thinking back at the.
Speaker A:How my practice has evolved and different things I've tried at different times up to where I am now.
Speaker A:And it's not exactly trial and error.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because error implies, in a way, that's a wasted effort.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And looking back, I'm seeing much more continuity of just.
Speaker A:It's all.
Speaker A:It's just a cumulative experience.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But I think for people, it might be helpful for listeners who are doubtful as to whether they're wasting their time.
Speaker A:You know, this, like you said, this.
Speaker A:This concern about outcomes or this concern about, you know, should I keep on doing this, that we can, we have stories to tell about our experience with changing practice over time.
Speaker A:And, you know, if you're not going to ordain and.
Speaker A:And therefore have a fixed practice, like, that's pretty much how you get.
Speaker A:That's pretty much the definition of a fixed practice, right.
Speaker A:You're totally committed entire life, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:But other than that, as a lay person, you're probably as a lay person without living next door to that monastery.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So, okay, so in a lot of eastern communities there, you're growing up with a monastery or a local spiritual practice of whatever faith it is.
Speaker A:You have a local temple that you're associated with just by propinquity.
Speaker A:And, you know, whether your, your family is of one faith or another faith, you're just you.
Speaker A:That's the practice that you have.
Speaker A:And of course, what we are, the premise of our podcast is that our listeners are people who do not do that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so which kind of brings us to more of our pathways wherever we.
Speaker A:We were raised in our parents faith, and then we found our own path.
Speaker A:And so I think we should spend some time talking about that, because in the context of the conversation we've been having up till now, I kind of feel like it's time.
Speaker A:Like it.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:Because I want to keep on asking you, well, what about before that?
Speaker A:What did you do before that?
Speaker B:You know, my path and my practice is less defined, I think, than probably what you.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm not following in any kind of previously described pathway.
Speaker B:I'm just following what in the conversations with God, one of the statements from God was somewhere along the lines of, like, it's not meant to be complicated.
Speaker B:So the things that seem to resonate with me as making sense and being true to my experience and what I understand, those are things I've been trying to follow.
Speaker B:I have specifically, I think, one big piece of practice, and this is really just an inclination of the way I am and I work, is immersing myself with a breadth of information.
Speaker B:But I tend to the fringe more than the traditional.
Speaker B:Traditional or institutional, although I do obviously still immerse myself in some of that because I think there is value there.
Speaker B:And I have found the most value in that in the context of some of the more fringe kinds of things.
Speaker B:Fringe, I say fringe, you know, and I think of conversation with, with God.
Speaker B:And at the same time, many of those things are reiterated or drawn from traditional, either buddhist or other belief systems or whatever.
Speaker B:So it's not necessarily a fringe idea, but it's also not super mainstream.
Speaker B:And you had mentioned that he has even kind of built a fairly large infrastructure about it.
Speaker B:And at the same time, I think it's funny.
Speaker B:We were both of perfectly fine age in the nineties, and this is now 35, 40 years later.
Speaker B:I happened across this.
Speaker B:This is not something that people, you know, it's just out there and it's in your face.
Speaker B:Like Amazon and Walmart.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker B:So I find that interesting.
Speaker B:And I've found value in taking in some of that information as a method to clarify what maybe some more ancient text was trying to get at.
Speaker B:But I mean, to the point, I guess, is a big part of my practice that I've found meditative.
Speaker B:You know, I have struggled with.
Speaker B:I believe I have struggled, although I don't I, with meditation.
Speaker B:We've talked about it, and I'm like, oh, I don't meditate that much.
Speaker B:And yet many of the things I do throughout the day are, in fact, meditative and could be considered meditative practice.
Speaker B:But because I don't identify it within the structure of what I perceive to be what meditation should be, I discount those practices.
Speaker B:So I know that that's something just in.
Speaker B:In me.
Speaker B:But the point being that when I can sit down and I think that the.
Speaker B:The audio piece of it has really helped because I'm not physically engaging in trying to read and remember and think.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I can clear my mind.
Speaker B:I close my eyes.
Speaker B:Sometimes I'm in the dark, and I'm kind of just relaxing on the couch with my headphones on and just allowing the words and the information to come into my brain and into my awareness.
Speaker B:And sometimes things are like, oh, that makes a lot of sense, or it makes me think of something else.
Speaker B:And then sometimes I'm off on a tangent similar to meditation, and I have to bring myself back and be like, I haven't been listening to this for five minutes.
Speaker B:Let me go back and really hear what they said, but taking the time to give myself.
Speaker B:And if I consider that meditation, which in the way I'm describing it, it sounds like meditation to me, and it feels like meditation to me.
Speaker B:So I would say it probably is meditation that I probably meditate three, 4 hours a day on many days.
Speaker B:And not only is that allowing me to flood my awareness and my bodily biology with the ideas and concepts that embody the love and stuff that I want, as opposed to exposing myself for hours a day to Facebook or something where I'm getting all this negative.
Speaker B:So in that respect, I'm trying to offset a little bit by really bombarding myself, reminding me of these same messages, because they tend to be very similar messages.
Speaker B:And just having things come to mind and working through it and trying to stay away from the negative influences as best I can.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So your affinity for spiritual guidance, resources to guide you in, you know, your personal path.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Your affinity is to what you call more fringe or non traditional.
Speaker A:Would you call it new way?
Speaker A:Would you think it falls into new age, like the new age section of the bookstore, maybe?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I'm open to those things, and some of those things do resonate with me, but at the same time, I don't necessarily seek out.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So we know.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker A:We know conversations of God is a big source.
Speaker A:And what was the other thing about mastery?
Speaker B:What's that called, the way of mastery?
Speaker B:It is some books, I don't know how how related it is to something called Shanti Cristo.
Speaker B:I don't know if that's something that you've ever heard of.
Speaker B:I had never heard of it.
Speaker B:It seems.
Speaker B:It sounds like it's a religion, I guess.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm scowling, I'm making a face.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:But it's got a website, and it's.
Speaker B:It's somehow.
Speaker B:It's somehow affiliated with that group, and it is purported to be, you know, the words being channeled from.
Speaker B:From Christ, but it's the same thing.
Speaker A:Shanti, crystal.
Speaker B:I keep saying Shanti.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Shanti is a.
Speaker A:Is a.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, it's a.
Speaker A:It means peace.
Speaker B:Oh, I'll write it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Shanti crystal.
Speaker B:And, I mean, I'm nothing like.
Speaker B:Like, I didn't search this out and then find it.
Speaker B:It literally was something that popped up.
Speaker B:But they.
Speaker B:They sell these books, I think, and they have study groups and stuff.
Speaker A:So is it that you're trying to pull ideas that you're trying to identify congruent ideas, and.
Speaker A:And you're trying to pull them without having a structure, to committing to a structure?
Speaker A:Basically, yeah.
Speaker B:I have no desire or inclination to commit to a structure structure or I.
Speaker B:Or to have an identified named path.
Speaker B:And I don't want to short myself on my path by rejecting something that could be meaningful and helpful based off of an ideal that I'm identifying with something specific.
Speaker B:I guess the converse to that would be that then you accept everything at face value and potentially get distracted and go down a different path.
Speaker B:But I feel confident enough in my ability to discern what I believe to be true and to see those congruencies and to be able to just pass over the stuff that doesn't have meaning to me and not throw the baby out with the bath water, basically, to take the gems that I can.
Speaker B:And I guess part of that comes from a belief that.
Speaker B:I believe that if I'm open to the communication of the spirit world, that the spirit world will help provide resources and guidance that will be meaningful to me.
Speaker B:At the time, you know, these things came at different times.
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:I happened upon this book through an advertisement that was completely unrelated to this book or anything else.
Speaker B:And normally, I would bypass those things, but I happened to hear it and be like, oh, that's an interesting thing.
Speaker B:And I looked into it, and then I was able to get it for free, thankfully, because I wouldn't have.
Speaker B:I wouldn't have bought it.
Speaker B:Oh, one credit on audible for all three books.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:And then I was listening to it you know, going to work and stuff in the car.
Speaker A:Oh, maybe I should do that.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And when I started listening to it, I was hearing things that made sense where, like, historically, reading the Bible and other things, it's very complicated.
Speaker B:And it's, for whatever reason, either just due to the cultural changes over thousands of years, coupled with translations, coupled with, you know, socio political impacts over, you know, the millennia, it's not that the gems and the information aren't there, they're just not clear.
Speaker B:And a lot of people, I find, struggle to translate or understand the meaning behind what was going on.
Speaker B:And that causes not only frustration, but also confusion or misguidance and weaponization, which we've talked about previously.
Speaker B:And when I was hearing this, I could draw the lines and say, oh, that's what this meant.
Speaker B:Or I can see how that could be possible.
Speaker B:And that makes sense on now I can see where.
Speaker B:What the purpose of us being here and why we're here, and all these huge questions that are always so enigmatic.
Speaker B:I found clarity that started with the conversations with God.
Speaker B:And then years later, I fall on randomly this other thing, and I'm like, huh, what's that?
Speaker B:And I start listening to it.
Speaker B:And my inclinations in the beginning, same thing when I see channelings of Jesus, you know, that's crazy.
Speaker B:Or, you know, my initial reaction is to reject it.
Speaker B:But for whatever reason, I'm.
Speaker B:I find an inclination to give it a chance.
Speaker B:And when I give it that chance, all of a sudden there's this huge clarity that are coming through.
Speaker B:And, you know, whether it's the words that are there or just.
Speaker B:It's the time that I needed to hear that message to move on.
Speaker B:And whether that's the spirit realm or just happenstance, whatever it is, you know, you can make all those arguments.
Speaker B:And the point is, I, and by extension you, meaning you, all, all of humanity isn't required to defend their position.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like, I believe it, I know it in my being.
Speaker B:But I couldn't tell you something that would then make you understand why I believe it, because everything that I would say is refutable, but it's not refutable to me.
Speaker B:And there's nothing you could say to me save additional information that brought me more insight.
Speaker B:But there's nothing you could say to me about, oh, that's crazy and impossible.
Speaker B:That would make me disbelieve what I know air quotes in my being.
Speaker B:And I know it because I've seen the effects of it.
Speaker B:I've been able to look back on it and say, oh, everything I've ever truly wanted and prayed for, I have received, and I say that with absolute confidence.
Speaker B:And when I have wanted something that I prayed for and didn't get, I can point to the fact that I did not truly want that.
Speaker B:I didn't want it in the core of my being.
Speaker B:I didn't want it fully.
Speaker B:And that's okay.
Speaker B:There's no judgment on that.
Speaker B:But it does make me feel comfortable and confident that I have control to some degree.
Speaker B:I have control to create my experience.
Speaker B:And even as far as my job, which, so, you know, work has been a challenge the past few years.
Speaker B:And I tried on for size, knowingly and intentionally.
Speaker B:I chose to take on a negative attitude towards the experiences that were happening at work and decided for myself that I had outgrown this.
Speaker B:This is no longer what I choose and shit hit the fan and things like that.
Speaker A:Wait, this is recently or this is.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, this is.
Speaker B:This is current work.
Speaker A:Oh, oh, oh.
Speaker B:Started off, you know, with our, with the negative issues, but to the point even, you know, six months or a year ago, well, it would have been six months ago we started this, but it was over a year ago that I was like, I want something different.
Speaker B:This no longer represents me.
Speaker B:And this is language that I learned from this.
Speaker B:Knowing the power behind it, I am now choosing that this is not what I want.
Speaker B:I don't want this job.
Speaker B:And I tried it on for size and I went out and I was looking for other jobs out there, decided that I wanted to do my own thing.
Speaker B:Well, that's something that's been eating at me for a long time.
Speaker B:So rekindled that pursuit, and that pursuit hasn't gone away.
Speaker B:I still want that.
Speaker B:But the point is, I was saying, I hate my job.
Speaker B:I don't like it.
Speaker B:It doesn't represent me.
Speaker B:I don't feel meaning on it.
Speaker B:I don't want it anymore.
Speaker B:What I experienced was negative relationships at work, obviously negative perceptions towards work, because I had already told myself that all the things with the vaccination, that was starting to drive me nuts with the mandates and stuff, and it was semi annually having to come to terms with, I need to get this vaccination or I'm going to be fired, and having to make that choice.
Speaker B:Do I choose to get the vaccination against my will because I want this lifestyle and I want the comfort and I want my family to be taken care of?
Speaker B:Or do I want to take that leap of faith, get fired, essentially, and hope that everything works out in the end?
Speaker B:And that was a choice, and there's no right or wrong on either of those.
Speaker A:So this is very exciting.
Speaker A:So where is this now?
Speaker A:Hold on.
Speaker B:So middle of summer, they sent out, you know, they're gonna.
Speaker B:The new Omicron variant specific bivalent booster is going to be coming out, and you will be expected to get it.
Speaker B:And I was pissed for like a week.
Speaker B:My wife's like, I don't know what's going on with you, but I'm like, I'm fine, whatever.
Speaker B:Of course I intel, you know, but that was a big driver.
Speaker B:I was very angry that I was being put in that position, and I was living that anger, internalizing that anger, and fostering that anger.
Speaker B:And it probably was in August.
Speaker B:And I was like, I don't agree with this, and I'm choosing that.
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker B:I'm just gonna have to get it, because I enjoy the comfort I have in my paycheck.
Speaker B:I enjoy that we can continue to do this without pressure of having it be successful or having income.
Speaker B:I want my wife to be mentally feel safe because she has a number of medications we're talking about, like insurance and all that.
Speaker B:It gets messy, and I got kids, so I was just like, this is how it has to be.
Speaker B:I haven't taken on that.
Speaker B:The job doesn't have meaning to me still.
Speaker B:I don't like it, but I accepted it.
Speaker B:Now I've grieved the loss of my previous identity, that this was going to be my work.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I accepted its new place as a tool, a means to an end, and I found comfort in it and literally told you almost that same thing.
Speaker B:And so on a Friday, they sent out the email, you have to get vaccinated by November 1.
Speaker B:I talked to you later in that week and said, I have it kind of accepted, and found my place in this.
Speaker B:And, you know, I enjoy my comfort and my lifestyle, and so this is what it is until something.
Speaker B:Till I can achieve that other thing.
Speaker B:And literally the next Friday, they sent out an email saying that they were backing off of that and nobody had to, that they weren't required.
Speaker A:Oh, I see.
Speaker B:Happenstance, whatever, maybe.
Speaker A:Uh huh.
Speaker B:But I changed my attitude.
Speaker B:And literally, the, the events and circumstances in my life changed within days.
Speaker A:It was crazy interesting.
Speaker B:And that's not the first time things like that have happened, which is where I say, you know, I believe in the core of my being of how this, how this works and how we interact with this environment.
Speaker B:I'm not a perfect master.
Speaker B:I fault all the time, but I'm to the point where I feel like I can recognize that it was my fault.
Speaker B:I chose that.
Speaker B:And if I chose that, I can unchoose it the next time.
Speaker B:And that's where I'm at in my practice right now, is really trying to remember when I feel that, is this really what I want?
Speaker B:And if I'm seeing things that I don't like, taking direct action to change my attitude towards it.
Speaker A:Hmm, interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm not inclined to have a specific practice, but I do practice, and the practice is trying.
Speaker B:I guess, ultimately, the core of my practice is just to try and reflect as much light and love as I can.
Speaker A:But you do have a.
Speaker A:I mean, it sounds like a practice.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's not a.
Speaker A:What's the word?
Speaker A:There's no ritual to it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Which is, I think, what a lot of people would struggle with one way or another.
Speaker A:Like, some people would struggle with a practice because it's too ritualistic.
Speaker A:Some people would struggle with, you know, your path because where's the ritual?
Speaker A:Like, how do I know?
Speaker A:But as you said, you know, you know what?
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You've put something together that you know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I was going to ask you because you.
Speaker A:You said to, very broadly paraphrase, you said, I couldn't prove to you what I know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I'm like, well, why would you need to prove to anyone?
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:But I remembered that way.
Speaker A:Well, first episode, we talked about, like, how we were seeking our path, and your impetus was you wanted to know certain things.
Speaker A:And so I'm wondering if that's, is it just the same words or is it the same thing that you're knowing?
Speaker A:And I didn't want to know things I was looking for.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Like, we had relief.
Speaker B:That was actually an interesting conversation to me because I always kind of had this thought that everybody wants to know this question.
Speaker B:It was interesting to hear somebody be like, yeah, I never really cared about that.
Speaker B:I care about this.
Speaker B:I'm like, oh, interesting that that makes sense.
Speaker B:But I just never even crossed my mind that people would actually have different large questions.
Speaker B:Do I know?
Speaker B:Are you asking, did I find the answers I was looking for?
Speaker A:Well, I'm just.
Speaker A:I'm really.
Speaker A:So when you referred to things that, you know, now that you've put together, are those the answers to the questions?
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker A:Some of the answers?
Speaker B:I think so, yes, for sure.
Speaker B:Some.
Speaker B:Is it absolutely everything?
Speaker B:Well, you know, you learn stuff and then new questions arise.
Speaker A:So I take it some of the questions are the questions that are actually in conversation.
Speaker B:I think so, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, certainly my biggest thing was understanding the purpose of this existence.
Speaker B:You know, why are we here?
Speaker B:How did all this happen?
Speaker B:Is it really just this like, random chance that this complicated ecosystem that's perfectly symbiotic is random?
Speaker B:I don't know, but I don't believe that that.
Speaker B:And certainly there's no fruitful meaning for existence that comes from that kind of perspective.
Speaker B:And so when.
Speaker B:So a few years ago.
Speaker B:What was this?
Speaker B:I don't even know what happened, Peter.
Speaker B:It was weird.
Speaker B:I was just doing, I started listening to.
Speaker B:What is his name?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:He's a.
Speaker B:What is a jewish messianic jew.
Speaker B:So a jew that Jesus?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:There's actually a thing about that.
Speaker B:And he had some interesting sermons also.
Speaker B:I had mentioned David Asherick is a 7th day Adventist, but like a really engaging and passionate evangelist, I guess.
Speaker B:But like, his, his sermons were very well thought out.
Speaker B:I don't agree with everything he said, and I certainly don't agree with everything he says now in light of new insight.
Speaker B:But though engaging those conversations, because previous to that, I had not been a practicing.
Speaker B:We had, this is pre going to church, except for like, when I was a kid and stuff, so.
Speaker B:And we weren't practicing anything.
Speaker B:We weren't actively involved in a spiritual practice or religion.
Speaker B:I think I never really moved away from spirituality per se, but I definitely flirted quite a bit more with the materialistic world.
Speaker B:And of course, I mean, you're talking teens and twenties and early thirties.
Speaker B:And then somewhere in my thirties, it must have been after Kylie was born.
Speaker B:So it would have been in my thirties.
Speaker B:So we were given a Bible by my mother in law for our wedding.
Speaker B:And I was, whatever it is, something happened.
Speaker B:It was not a specific event, but I had been flirting with some of these other, some of these ideas through some speakers.
Speaker B:Actually, you know, those guys might have actually come after.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I think what actually happened was I just decided I was going to start reading the Bible.
Speaker B:Like, oh, we have a Bible downstairs.
Speaker B:I feel like there's got to be more to this.
Speaker B:Maybe there's some insight there.
Speaker B:I should just read the Bible just to, just to do it, just to read and see what's in there.
Speaker B:Oh, you know what happened.
Speaker B:This wasn't a direct driver, but it did have impact was I had gone back to college to finish up my degree and ended up.
Speaker B:So I was doing southern New Hampshire University online and where I had not done very well in school previously, it wasn't because of my smarts, it was just because I didn't do the work.
Speaker B:I had had this drive to really, like, excel at school.
Speaker B:I wanted to be a really good student.
Speaker B:And so, of course, I was doing really well.
Speaker B:Ended up being the president of one of the honor societies there and ended up going to Florida for one of their, like, conference kind of thing.
Speaker B:And I met a guy there from Georgia.
Speaker B:Super.
Speaker B:He was smooth.
Speaker B:Like, he.
Speaker B:He was a smooth talker, really intelligent guy.
Speaker B:We basically hit it off right away, and we're hung out the whole time.
Speaker B:And he was starting a business, and we kind of started talking business.
Speaker B:But he was.
Speaker B:He was very much into the Bible, and he would be, like, throwing out these quotes and stuff.
Speaker B:Not, like, preachy, you know, sometimes what?
Speaker B:I don't even remember what he said, like, what the quote was, but we were just talking one time, and he said something.
Speaker B:It was really profound.
Speaker B:He's like, yeah, you know who said that?
Speaker B:I'm like, no.
Speaker B:He's like, God.
Speaker B:I was like, okay.
Speaker B:And it was just.
Speaker B:It was kind of flipping off the cuff, but it was.
Speaker B:It was impactful.
Speaker B:I was like, okay, maybe I should look into.
Speaker B:It wasn't that I was necessarily resistant to it.
Speaker B:I just had no desire to.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And then I started reading the Bible.
Speaker B:Never read the whole thing, but I read quite a bit.
Speaker B:But as I was doing it one night, I had a really weird experience, like visions, and I couldn't move.
Speaker B:My whole body was, like, vibrating, and I'm fully aware and awake, and I'm looking up at the skylight, and I'm seeing faces, and I'm seeing all kinds of different things.
Speaker B:And it was really crazy.
Speaker B:And then I got scared and, like, really scared.
Speaker B:And everything went away after that.
Speaker B:And I came back and, you know, my body was pretty tingly for a while, but that was, like, this hugely monumental moment where I wasn't sure if it was a good or bad energy or experience.
Speaker B:I started because what I saw was so scary.
Speaker B:I was.
Speaker B:I have attributed it to, like, I saw the kind of, like, the worst of the worst kind of thing, but I'm not convinced that that's actually what it was.
Speaker B:But whatever it was is kind of irrelevant because it sent me on the path.
Speaker B:And that, I think, was the biggest impetus to me.
Speaker B:Just at that point, I was like, okay.
Speaker B:I told Christine that I wanted to start looking for a church.
Speaker B:Not that I thought church was going to be the answer, but that that was a step forward on a path.
Speaker B:On a path, right.
Speaker B:Just taking that leap, like what's his name said in the power meth, you know you're on the precipice.
Speaker B:That's the scary unknown.
Speaker B:And the first step is the choice, the intent, the step off the ledge.
Speaker B:So we ended up at the church that we went to.
Speaker B:I went specifically looking for a church that was, like, more progressive.
Speaker B:I mean, I wasn't.
Speaker B:I wasn't a Catholic, and I knew I wasn't going to be a catholic, and I wanted something where my kids weren't going to be stuck in church, too.
Speaker B:So I was looking for something.
Speaker B:I know Kenny had had a church similar to that, which is to say I went looking for things that were similar to what he said his church was like and ended up in the same church structure.
Speaker B:Is his.
Speaker B:Yeah, different congregate.
Speaker B:But I didn't even know that I wasn't looking for this.
Speaker B:And in fact, I believe I've kind of outgrown this.
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker A:So a progressive congregation with childcare during services.
Speaker B:Yeah, I wanted.
Speaker B:I wanted us to.
Speaker B:So I was.
Speaker B:I wanted ordination of women because I think that's important.
Speaker B:I don't think.
Speaker B:I think that that's an antiquated and unspiritual, unrelated religious doctrine.
Speaker B:So I wasn't necessarily looking specifically for LGBT, but that wasn't an issue for me.
Speaker B:I fully subscribe to the idea, which is the statement on our churches thing, that all are welcome no matter who you are, where you are.
Speaker B:They don't embody that the way I'd like them to.
Speaker B:But beyond that, I do subscribe very fully to that idea, and that drove that.
Speaker B:That brought us there.
Speaker B:And then, you know, I got involved in the church, and that was interesting.
Speaker B:And I think I was able to help bring some behavioral insight to some of the people, because that congregation is very established insofar as the people that are left have been there for like, 30, 40 years, and they all have some baggage with each other.
Speaker B:And it was not always, still isn't always the most healthy interactions between them.
Speaker B:So I think I was able to bring some outside kind of perspective to some of the things that were going on.
Speaker B:I think I was able to help during a really tumultuous time when they were trying to recall the pastor.
Speaker B:And so I think I've been able to do good there.
Speaker B:I have received some benefit from being involved, and I do care for those people, but all of that was never really my path.
Speaker B:It was really more the commitment.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It was like, I believe that there's more to this.
Speaker B:I want to find out more about that.
Speaker B:I don't know any other path but going to church and being in church.
Speaker B:We said this before, too, like many times.
Speaker B:I'm like, I don't feel like going to church.
Speaker B:And I'm always happy that I did.
Speaker B:And whether or not I fully subscribe to their doctrine or any of that, when I'm there, I feel in the presence of God, I guess, is, if you want to call it that.
Speaker B:And then I started to evaluate some other things.
Speaker B:So I started listening to some other sermons, the David Asherick, the 7th day Adventist stuff, which again, like, it started, it opened my mind.
Speaker B:It was information for me to consume and to process, and I took from it nuggets of wisdom that were helpful to me on my path and rejected the other stuff.
Speaker B:And then I found other people that brought some other insight, and then I happened across this conversations with God, and that was the one that kind of brought all of those nuggets that I had come across over the years or whatever, and made the connection, the web of connections between them.
Speaker B:And that brought me some satiation that I was starting to have some understanding of how all of this is.
Speaker B:And then it's just been consuming after that and progressing down that while I still participate in the church.
Speaker B:But that's not like my doctrine.
Speaker B:I told you, you know, that I call myself a Christian because I choose Jesus as my teacher, and I still do.
Speaker B:I mean, I still feel like I have a connection with that, being as a teacher, but not that he was the only teacher or the only one in that, you know?
Speaker B:And a lot of what I've been consuming kind of reiterates that.
Speaker B:And whether or not this confirmation bias or not, whatever, you know, it's bringing me spiritual peace, and I think that's the most important thing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:I guess that's my path.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So you're still.
Speaker A:Basically, you're still consuming and developing in this kind of random, organic way.
Speaker A:I mean, it's spontaneous random.
Speaker A:It is like things that you just come across, right?
Speaker B:Yep, pretty much.
Speaker B:And the things that seem to.
Speaker B:The consistencies, you know, are where I start to put focus on where, because so I have this.
Speaker B:This principle that if I take my car to a mechanic, so say I take my car to get tires, and they tell me I need brakes, I don't get brakes there, I bring it to someone else, you know, I never get it at the place that they told me that they were going to do it.
Speaker B:That's kind of the same idea.
Speaker B:Like the things, if this person and this person and this person are all saying something similar, then there may be something to that, and maybe I should evaluate that more.
Speaker B:And if it's really, like, crazy and I don't understand it and it makes no sense to me, then I just, if nothing else, I just put it away.
Speaker B:I don't necessarily reject it, but the comment that it's supposed to be easy and it's not, it's not meant to be complicated and a trick and like a puzzle to solve, we make it that way.
Speaker B:We as a, as a collective make it that way through our institutions and, and our own biases and, and maybe blockages of whatever.
Speaker B:And the most successful things I've ever had are the things that I allowed to happen without judgment.
Speaker B:Like, if this is meant to be, this is meant to be, and if it doesn't happen, then it wasn't meant to be.
Speaker B:And I've had quite a lot of success with that.
Speaker B:So I guess that a lot of it is related to what I've, what I perceive to have been my experience, you know?
Speaker B:And so if I can relate it to something in my experience and be like, oh, well, maybe that's why that happened.
Speaker B:And then if I can practice it and actually still see reaction from it, whether or not it's real or not, it's real to me.
Speaker A:Mm hmm.
Speaker A:Mm hmm.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:So, yeah, very different.
Speaker A:Our paths, I think, are, are very different in character.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So, as I said before, grew up in church through high school, was quite active, and then in high school had this kind of break, which was really, I think it was really around, in a way, social phobias or social discomforts that split me away.
Speaker A:And from there, I think the rest of my path has been really relatively solitary.
Speaker A:And now I find myself more towards creating community.
Speaker A:Like, it never would have occurred to me to say I want to join a church right now.
Speaker A:When our kids were born, we joined a synagogue for them.
Speaker A:And that was just, you know, like my wife always said she wanted to raise the kids in her tradition, and I understand that.
Speaker A:And it's like, oh, well, let's do both this and that, you know, or whatever.
Speaker A:So it's like, that was that.
Speaker A:But, you know, it started out, my, kind of my independent path started out with Zen Buddhism, which really, to me was Zazet.
Speaker A:It was just seated meditation with no explanation, no background.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:It's just sit.
Speaker A:And I got some books, like three pillars of Zen and Zen training and obviously signing prize Suzuki trying to understand Zen.
Speaker A:And really it was these things more than anything, talked about japanese tradition, didn't talk about to me, they didn't seem to talk about the real point, like, it was very obscure.
Speaker A:And that is a tradition in Zen.
Speaker A:If you can talk about it, then you're not talking about it.
Speaker A:Very, very obscure, which is kind of a mystical approach, really, but a struggle for me.
Speaker A:So I was doing the practice.
Speaker A:And so then eventually I moved to New York City.
Speaker A:So I was able to join a Zendo where I just attended once a week at their free sitting and did one weekend retreat with them.
Speaker A:So I had a practice, but I wasn't really getting anything out of it.
Speaker A:I didn't feel like I was growing.
Speaker A:I didn't feel like I was other than discipline and relaxation, right.
Speaker A:I wasn't getting anything out of it, so I didn't think I was getting anything spiritual out of it.
Speaker A:And then over the next few years, I moved out of New York.
Speaker A:I moved out of the.
Speaker A:I moved to Long island, so I didn't have the Zendo anymore.
Speaker A:And that's when I started getting into Jack Kornfield and Tara Brak on audio.
Speaker A:And it was more of kind of self help and feeling better than any kind of discipline practice.
Speaker A:But obviously.
Speaker A:So, first of all, they're buddhist teachers and they're therapists.
Speaker A:I believe both of them are therapists.
Speaker A:So it was okay for that.
Speaker A:And it had the buddhist underpinnings.
Speaker A:So they don't kind of teach Buddhism.
Speaker A:They teach ways to work through your problems and challenges that are based in Buddhism, and they'll use buddhist examples, but they don't teach Buddhism.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So they might have a talk like, what are the four noble truths?
Speaker A:Okay, this is what they are.
Speaker A:This is what it means.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:And so I was getting kind of the smattering of Buddhism.
Speaker A:I was getting the language.
Speaker A:I was getting a lot of the premises, you know.
Speaker A:Now, I never talked about saying no soul or anything like that, but other things definitely loving kindness came out of that period.
Speaker A:And so I think that was where I had, like, a real lull in meditation, but I was practicing more mindfulness.
Speaker A:So, for instance, in driving, I mean, I can't remember the timeline exactly, but definitely there was a time when I was quite an angry driver.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And eventually I started doing loving kindness, meditation on the road.
Speaker A:And that was my practice for a long time, which was a good daily practice and very, very helpful in reducing my discomfort, but was, you know, I didn't have a goal of.
Speaker A:I didn't have a spiritual goal, right.
Speaker A:So I was just almost going through the motions without having a.
Speaker A:Well, without having a spiritual goal, without having a structure in terms of any congregation, you know, or even.
Speaker A:Or even contact.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I mean, this is completely solitary practice.
Speaker A:And then I think that was, like, sporadic.
Speaker A:I mean, I pretty consistently was listening to them in various ways over probably a decade, and eventually, well, it wasn't till work.
Speaker A:This is the thing so strangely, in a way, because workforce, an iPhone, I would never bought a smartphone.
Speaker A:Like, I was just like, that's crazy.
Speaker A:You know, I love my flip phone, but I was forced to a smartphone, which meant I learned to use apps.
Speaker A:And so I got a meditation app, which was.
Speaker A:That started me into a meditation practice.
Speaker A:And so now he's returning to meditation, and I guess because I was starting to read about Buddhism now, and, boy, I can't remember any specific sources.
Speaker A:Thich nhat Hanh was definitely one of them.
Speaker A:Heart of buddhist teaching.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't know how I picked up these kind of.
Speaker A:Kind of random books on various sutras.
Speaker A:One was the sutra, the realizations of eight beings.
Speaker A:Like, a random, like, pull off the bookshelf.
Speaker A:Like, oh, look at this.
Speaker A:And the point of the book was teaching the path through one specific sutra.
Speaker A:I mean, this is not one of the better known sutras that I've come across in, you know, in my.
Speaker A:My readings.
Speaker A:But I read this book, and I memorized that sutra, and so I was taking it in.
Speaker A:But what was the practice?
Speaker A:So very kind of wandering, wandering buddhist.
Speaker A:So it wasn't until really about ten years ago that I went back to sitting, and I started to feel, basically, I was doing this mindfulness, this general mindfulness practice from, I want to say, insight meditation system society, because I think Jack and Tara are out of that lineage.
Speaker A:This kind of mindfulness not based on meditation, you know, kind of like looking at how your mind works and the kind of loving kindness stuff and forgiveness stuff that's not this rigorous seated meditation.
Speaker A:And then through my readings, I started thinking, as I learned more about, oh, and online materials, to learning more about, well, what is buddhist practice?
Speaker A:And then feeling like, oh, I'm not meditating.
Speaker A:Like, I'm not really being a buddhist, you know, if I'm not meditating.
Speaker A:And so I wanted to get back to seated practice.
Speaker A:So about nine years ago with the app, I started getting serious with sitting meditation in the sense that I wanted to do it every day and I wanted to develop a good habit.
Speaker A:So I got well over eight years, consecutive days without missing single day.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:And then actually remember when I had this severe vertigo?
Speaker A:That was the day I missed it.
Speaker A:And that was, like, 150 days ago.
Speaker A:And that was like, wow, I haven't missed a day.
Speaker A:Like, that was it.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But all that time, like, leading up to that, I was thinking, you know, you're really attached to the idea of not missing a day.
Speaker A:Now, not missing a day might mean only 1 minute, and it wasn't very often that I would do only 1 minute.
Speaker A:But it wasn't.
Speaker A:No, it wasn't never.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:There were a few days when I would do only 1 minute or five minutes much more often, but more typically, 15 minutes was about what I was doing.
Speaker A:And really my goal was just to establish a foundation and say, I have a practice.
Speaker A:Like, this is my practice.
Speaker A:So a long time just developing the practice without kind of adding to it.
Speaker A:I mean, I was trying different things.
Speaker A:I was trying different guided meditations from time to time, but I wasn't, like, landing on one, sticking with it.
Speaker A:I was mostly doing timer meditations.
Speaker A:It was just following the breath, just basic.
Speaker A:And this is the other thing is like, okay, so I knew this was the most basic meditation instruction.
Speaker A:So I said, well, I'm going to do that because I don't need anything more than that.
Speaker A:I mean, the Buddha said, you don't need anything more than that.
Speaker A:So I think for a long time, though, I wasn't assessing my progress, and so what was I getting out of it?
Speaker A:You know, stress reduction.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And discipline.
Speaker A:So again, we're back to discipline and stress reduction.
Speaker A:And then eventually, as I read more and more about Buddhism from different sources, I started to understand.
Speaker A:I don't say understand, maybe buy into the overall story.
Speaker A:And, okay, what are, what are the premises of Buddhism?
Speaker A:Like?
Speaker A:What are the, you know, the core things, like emptiness, non self suffering.
Speaker A:What do they mean?
Speaker A:What are, you know, what are we talking about?
Speaker A:What was it?
Speaker A:What was he trying to teach her?
Speaker A:And somewhere along the way, I learned enough, or I read, actually, it was much more recently, it was this past couple of years that I kind of said, you know what?
Speaker A:I don't want to just be doing a buddhist practice.
Speaker A:I want to be a practicing Buddhist.
Speaker A:And I don't know why I felt the need to do that.
Speaker A:And I don't know why I felt the need to identify as a Buddhist all this time.
Speaker A:I think this is the thing is, it really has to do with a lot of the identity, this dysfunctional identity I had, which had a lot to do with interacting with other people.
Speaker A:And so the idea of saying that I was a Buddhist was important, but still missing the element of the sangha.
Speaker A:So the three refuges are the Buddha the dharma and sangha.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And the Buddha, you could say, is the inherent Buddha nature or your own inner wisdom.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So developing your inner wisdom.
Speaker A:The dharma is, broadly speaking, it's the law of the universe and everything that exists.
Speaker A:But specifically, it means the teachings, right?
Speaker A:And then the third one is the sangha.
Speaker A:So I thought, well, I've been working on the Buddha for a while, because that's what the meditation was, and I'm doing more of the dharma.
Speaker A:So I was getting more into actual teachings and scriptures instead of just like, you know, people's talks about certain things.
Speaker A:And then I started becoming more concerned about the sangat.
Speaker A:Again, the drivers.
Speaker A:The drivers are strange, because the inherent driver was kind of discomfort and inherent suffering.
Speaker A:But the more I think about it, the more I think the drivers are social.
Speaker A:It's like loneliness.
Speaker A:Comparing myself.
Speaker A:I mean, what were my stressors?
Speaker A:A lot of my stressors were comparing myself with other people.
Speaker A:So it's funny.
Speaker A:So it's like, it's really the stuff that I was talking about this morning.
Speaker A:And so, through happenstance, really, when things started taking off, was when Emily had her course.
Speaker A:And then after the course, she recommended that I do the course that she was doing, that she was doing the teacher's course.
Speaker A:And so I registered for it, and the prerequisite was this other course, the power of awareness, which I would highly recommend.
Speaker A:I think it's a couple hundred dollars and, like, seven weeks independent study video online, which I found was really strengthening now, my sitting meditation.
Speaker A:So now it was much more guided, much more directed, increasing my time, because in the course of the 30 minutes, so.
Speaker A:And I had done an hour.
Speaker A:I mean, at some point, I had attended a talk, the Dalai lamas in Boston, and I attended that, and that was a real kick.
Speaker A:And I started doing an hour meditation for.
Speaker A:Oh, God, no.
Speaker A:For at least a week, maybe a couple of weeks, I was doing an hour.
Speaker B:That's a lot.
Speaker A:It was a lot.
Speaker A:One of my brothers who meditates, he's like, you're gonna break yourself.
Speaker A:But kind of the growth, kind of the period up to then, and this is God, like, maybe 30 years or more.
Speaker A:I mean, if you go all the way back to the beginning, it's like 40 years, sporadic, you know, and then gradually strengthening.
Speaker A:But I.
Speaker A:I think it was kind of doing what I could because I didn't have access to Asanga, you know, at that time, the Internet wasn't what it is, and certainly there wasn't Zoom meetings the way we have now.
Speaker A:But I really see it as laying the foundation for me.
Speaker A:And then this thing of Emily say, take.
Speaker A:Take this course.
Speaker A:And then being open to it and doing it, that has kind of really kicked it off.
Speaker A:And now I have a real goal in a number of different ways for doing it because I am seeking community through it.
Speaker A:The course is a teacher certification.
Speaker A:I'm planning on using that to teach mindfulness.
Speaker A:And the purpose of teaching mindfulness is to develop my mindfulness.
Speaker A:I don't have a need to teach it to make money.
Speaker A:I don't have a desire to teach it to make money, but I can use it to help my community as kind of a air quotes here justification.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But really the purpose is, I know it's going to strengthen my progress, and that's what I really need is I really need this focused progress right now.
Speaker A:So I'm much more comfortable than you with this kind of structure, although it's pretty minimal.
Speaker A:Like you can say, I've been pretty wandering and pretty informal the whole way, and yet I, I'm really trying to understand the buddhist structure, and I'm really looking for it and I'm trying to decide.
Speaker A:I guess that's kind of the problem.
Speaker A:A challenge of this path is that ultimately you have to kind of land on a school.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So Tibetan Buddhism is quite different in practice than thai forest tradition Buddhism.
Speaker A:Like, you just wouldn't have the same teachers.
Speaker A:Now people have cross teachers, like, there are thai monks who've studied with the Dalai Lama, you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker A:But as a lay practitioner, it's like, well, ultimately, I want to join a temple and get a personal teacher, and so I'm going to have to land, although I may end up with, you know, this lineage of, of the course with Jack Kornfeld and Tara Brock, and they have other teachers in their group, and that's where I may end up.
Speaker A:But I think I'm looking at, hopefully a local physical temple that's within an hour.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:And, and I think that, oh, the other piece of power, awareness, which they don't promote, as in there, they just don't promote.
Speaker A:It's like once you register, they say, oh, there's this mentor program.
Speaker A:The mentor program is worth $200.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Because it's a lifetime mentorship, really.
Speaker A:They have a kind of a stable of mentors.
Speaker A:It's almost every single day.
Speaker A:There's an hour mentor zoom call.
Speaker A: ntor, I meet on Wednesdays at: Speaker A:And it turns out I mean, I only recently learned that it was lifetime.
Speaker A:They're like, as long as this organization exists, you can participate.
Speaker A:And so there are people who have been with this one mentor for years, and the community.
Speaker A:I mean, this is a.
Speaker A:This is a sangha, and.
Speaker A:And we sit, and it's like going to church.
Speaker A:You said, you know, you get on this call, and you're ahead.
Speaker A:You have some teaching, and you have some people ask to speak, and either, you know, tell what they experienced or ask for help with something they're struggling with.
Speaker A:And as I've said before, the mentor is really skilled.
Speaker A:I mean, I really feel like the time's well spent.
Speaker A:I'll walk away with.
Speaker A:With something, or, like, feeling like I had a real experience.
Speaker A:So, yeah, so I feel like, oh, and then, you know, I've taken on the challenge of the householder's vinya.
Speaker B:Which one of them.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Well, um, I guess I'm gonna.
Speaker A:I'm being content with the intention right now.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because it's a taught.
Speaker A:Just the little description.
Speaker A:I gave it to you.
Speaker A:It's tough.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which it's supposed to be.
Speaker A:I mean, it's supposed to, uh.
Speaker A:He likened it to be Hasid's right.
Speaker A:Very strict observance.
Speaker A:And he said, you know, that he asked, what do you get out of your practice?
Speaker A:And he says, every day, every minute of every day, I know what my relationship with God is.
Speaker A:And that's the point, is that you're always relating to the divine, and which is exactly what, you know, this was talking about.
Speaker A:It was talking about the same kind of attention.
Speaker A:I was gonna say mindfulness, but attention and choice.
Speaker A:And so it's about bringing the mindfulness of the cushion to daily life.
Speaker A:So, before, where I had been using a lot of mindfulness during the day or during driving, but no sitting, and then I been doing a lot more sitting, but maybe less intentional mindfulness for a long time now it's coming together.
Speaker A:And so I feel like I'm at a place where I've done enough meditation that I'm really comfortable with meditation.
Speaker A:And so if someone says, now we're going to meditate this way, it's a not an issue.
Speaker A:It's not like, oh, what am I supposed to be doing?
Speaker A:And so I'm at a point where things are starting to come, where I can start to put things together, or I'm ready for a teacher to tell me how to put it together and really have an understanding from experience of what the struggles are, what it means, what the challenges are, rather than just having someone say, you know, when you meditate, these are some challenges, and you don't really know what they're talking about until you've done it.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Oh, I wanted to say something.
Speaker A:You made a comment about meditation.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:That whether these things were meditation or not.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I just heard a teacher say this.
Speaker A:This is interesting.
Speaker A:He said most of his students are middle class grandmothers.
Speaker A:I think that's what he said.
Speaker A:And his.
Speaker A:His teaching was, how many times a day do you check your purse, you know, or for, for the rest of us, how many times a day do you check your phone?
Speaker A:Or do you know where your phone is?
Speaker A:Do you know where your wallet is?
Speaker A:If you checked your mind, if you were as aware of what your mind is doing as what your.
Speaker A:Where your phone is or what your charge level is, etc.
Speaker A:Etcetera, that's mindfulness.
Speaker A:And meditation is remembering in the same way meditation comes from.
Speaker A:Sati is the original term in buddhist tradition, pre Buddhist, I think, because other major indian religion.
Speaker B:Hindu.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I'm sure it's the same word.
Speaker A:It means remembering.
Speaker A:And as you said, you know, your mind wanders, and then you remember to come back, and that's what meditation is.
Speaker A:So whenever you remember, you know, if you're doing something that requires remembering, then that's meditation.
Speaker A:That's meditation.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's been quite a journey so far.
Speaker B:It's interesting to me that the kickstart has been so recent, so.
Speaker B:So to speak.
Speaker B:Not the kickstart, but, you know, the leaping forward into more.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Progress and more, even more practice.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You're making a more conscientious decision to go deeper on your practice.
Speaker B:I find it maybe timely that it all kind of happened.
Speaker B:We made a commitment to each other to embark on this project, which, by extension, I think, committed us a bit more to being aware of what we're doing.
Speaker A:Oh, you know what?
Speaker A:I left out the ritual part of my practice because, you know, when I said, I want to be a practicing Buddhist, there was a website that kind of had.
Speaker A:Here are the five basic things you need to do to practice as a Buddhist.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And I've had an altar for some time, which is just a covered table with a buddhist statue on it and an oil lamp and a couple other statues, which.
Speaker A:Okay, so I have an avalokiteshvara statue or Kuan yin or the bodhisattva.
Speaker A:That's from, well, basically the heart sutra.
Speaker A:So, studying the heart sutra.
Speaker A:The heart sutra is talks about avalanche and also the mantra om mani padimiyom.
Speaker A:So these kind of pointed me towards this figure of compassion, and I needed compassion practice.
Speaker A:So that's why he's there.
Speaker A:He she, because he's both male and female in different of manifestations.
Speaker A:And then Tara is kind of a sub deity of avalokiteshvar, and she is more of.
Speaker A:Specifically, she's wisdom and compassion, but also specifically removing obstacles to practice for the meditator.
Speaker A:And the reason I have her is because of one specific guided meditation, green tower practice that I found very, very resonant.
Speaker A:And so in addition to having an altar, and there's the three refuges, which I mentioned before, and there are five precepts, and there are the five recollections, which are just very quickly, I'm subject to aging.
Speaker A:I can't escape aging.
Speaker A:I'm subject to illness.
Speaker A:Can't escape illness.
Speaker A:I'm subject to death.
Speaker A:Can't escape death.
Speaker A:Everything that I own will change and vanished, impermanent.
Speaker A:And my own true.
Speaker A:My only true possessions are my actions, and I am heir to their outcomes for good or evil.
Speaker A:And then I use the heart sutra, and I set my intention.
Speaker A:So I do now have, which I hadn't had all the way up to now.
Speaker A:I do have that daily ritual, which I do before a half hour meditation building.
Speaker A:I mean, up to an hour, and either seated meditation or walking meditation, either just breathing meditation or a combination of breathing and loving kindness or just loving kindness or a guided meditation that seems to be appropriate at the moment.
Speaker A:Whether it's one I'm going back to or whether it's a new one.
Speaker A:I'm just coming.
Speaker A:I'm just trying out.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I'm at a point where I have really, a more rigorous practice, but I'm really looking forward to continuing this real development.
Speaker A:The ripening is what I'm seeing now is the ripening of the practice.
Speaker A:So I'm looking forward to that and then bringing that out to the world in more ways than our podcast.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, sure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Or in interacting with my family and people I meet, you know?
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And, well, there's no doubt that our.
Speaker A:Our project, a lot of things came together.
Speaker A:You know, our project, my retirement, our project, Emily's teaching all came together to kind of, like, land on top of my foundation.
Speaker A:That's why I feel like this is all serving me.
Speaker A:It's all.
Speaker A:It's all about me.
Speaker A:It's all about me, you know, to land on top of this foundation that I've been building for years.
Speaker A:And now I see, like, a decent structure standing yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's awesome.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I feel like, I mean, my practice, as described, has been an ongoing thing, but certainly making a commitment to a project that is more outward facing because my journey has been very individualistic and internal.
Speaker B:And even when I try and talk to other people, I'm not self conscious about it being different.
Speaker B:You know, like, it's different than what other.
Speaker B:Most people you come in contact with who might be inclined to have a spiritual conversation are going to have a spiritual conversation about something that is more traditional and, you know, so I don't talk to a lot of people about my.
Speaker B:My process or my journey or my intent, even very much.
Speaker B:And even those who I know, I have a hard time because the words I use are foreign, they're alien to them.
Speaker B:So it doesn't.
Speaker B:You're speaking two different languages, and then, of course, you have people who will call you a heretic and all the other, which is fine.
Speaker B:I mean, it is what it is.
Speaker B:But I have found value even in just.
Speaker B:We haven't even posted anything yet, but having the conversation, being able to speak it and have a volley.
Speaker B:And that's been, I think, really beneficial to my growth in this and.
Speaker B:And commitment, you know, by.
Speaker B:By committing to something else that helped, you know, the same idea as going to church.
Speaker B:I go to church.
Speaker B:That church is a commitment to my spirituality.
Speaker B:Whether or not I'm following that doctrine or not, it's really irrelevant.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:I guess that's my ritual.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:I go on.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:I go to church on Sunday and I try and help grow the kids in as productive and loving and genuine a way as I can, you know, and I haven't found roadblocks, which is nice, because I think that because of the insight I've gathered from some of these alternative sources, I feel like I'm able to bring a little bit of clarity to some of the things that we might be teaching that are more doctrinal.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:To be able to bring some insight on how to use that in a productive way, you know, even as much as the ten Commandments and even just talking about how gratitude helps to foster a happy person in you, regardless of what's happening outside, and that the jealousy and covetousness only serves to make you live an experience lack.
Speaker B:So, yeah, ultimately, I think that the commitment to the project has helped continue the practice, but at the same time, I still would be doing the same thing.
Speaker A:I completely agree.
Speaker A:So for next time, I'd like to get into more detail with the book.
Speaker A:You know, as.
Speaker A:As you've alluded to.
Speaker A:I think the gratitude concept is very significant, as the way it's expressed is.
Speaker A:Is fresh.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:You know, so I'll, you know, I'll mark it up.
Speaker A:I'll put in, you know, page markers and stuff.
Speaker A:Now, I mean, I will probably get a copy.
Speaker A:Do you.
Speaker A:Do you need this to.
Speaker B:I don't need.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I don't need it.
Speaker B:If you.
Speaker B:Whatever you want.
Speaker B:I bought it.
Speaker B:It was not expensive.
Speaker B:It was a used copy.
Speaker B:It's something I'm happy to have on my own because I've enjoyed it.
Speaker B:Whatever you want to do.
Speaker A:I guess it's.
Speaker A:I get the impression that you kind of know it well enough or you can work through the audio well enough that you can find whatever you want to talk about.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm not too worried about that.
Speaker B:Oh, you mean as far as, like, preparation?
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't need it.
Speaker A:So how many times have you listened to the audio?
Speaker B:A lot.
Speaker A:Like, end to end?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker B:Well, first book, I only listened to two and three.
Speaker B:I think I listened to the second book one or two other times in part, but I don't think I finished it, and I don't think I went back to book three, but I have listened to the first book end to end at least a dozen times, probably two dozen or more.
Speaker B:I mean, I've listened to it a lot.
Speaker B:It was a primary.
Speaker B:What I'm doing now with the.
Speaker B:The way of mastery I did with this for years, where it was like, when I was feeling tough or, you know, feeling disconnected or whatever it was, I would go to that and I'd close my eyes and I just have it fill my head and be reminded of the things.
Speaker B:And it even says, you know, read this over and over until, you know, it basically end to end.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I know it quite well, and I can find what I need to find, and you can do whatever you want with the book.
Speaker B:And if you buy your own books or whatever, give it back to me.
Speaker B:Either way, you could have it.
Speaker B:I don't care.
Speaker B:All right, cool.
Speaker B:Whatever works for you.
Speaker B:I bought it in hope that you would read it.
Speaker B:I'm glad that you have entertained the reading, and I'm even more happy that you found some value in it, but I didn't want you to feel compelled to have to buy it or whatever, because I do think it's the recommendation from me.
Speaker B:So I feel like, here, give it a shot.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker A:Well, thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:Yeah, of course.
Speaker B:Happy to do it?
Speaker B:Yeah, okay.
Speaker B:Sounds good.
Speaker A:All right.
