The Illusion of Perfection and Finding the Courage to Be Real

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution. They are for informational and entertainment purposes only. Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom podcast.

So my parents are in cognitive decline. They're in their late 80s and early 90s, living on their own in their own house, you know, definitely getting worse.

And I saw it getting worse when I visited. Why is that relevant? Maybe not relevant. That's just why I was up there. All right, to cut. I'll just cut to the chase.

So even though I realized that I had internalized this negativity in a particular way and that was my last kind of revelation, that realization is not enough. Like, I still essentially live in fear of that person. Right.

And even though I tried the practice of replacing the voice with some, some success, I don't believe it's a waste of time. It. It works better on the internal voice than on the real physical experience. Okay.

And so like, the last time I visited, I had sleep disturbance for two weeks before I came up. I was so stressed and I, and I realized in hindsight it's like, oh my God.

I just was stressing myself about this visit just because of, you know, the probably one dinner I would have with this relative.

Speaker B: 00:01:41

Wow.

Speaker A: 00:01:42

And, and so I kind of had the same experience, not, not in the lead up, but certainly in, oh, okay, so Thursday we're gonna have dinner. And that was like, oh, God, you know, now it went fine. It was very, it was very quiet, non confrontational.

And in fact, that relative hardly spoke at all during dinner and then excused themselves and said, I have to go do some work. And so then I had like another half hour or more with, you know, just hanging out with everybody else who wasn't as problematic.

So the breakthrough was going home and talking to my, my youngest sibling and in law who. Well, they're the other ones who live in, in town and I stay with them because it's just more comfortable.

They also provide a lot of debriefing for me because, you know, it's stressful dealing with my parents and I or, and you know, kind of seeing, seeing their problems. And so then we talk about like our, what our experiences are. And of course they live there, so they see it much more, much more.

And they also talk about this other sibling.

And, and so at the beginning of the week already there was a spontaneous conversation where they brought that sibling up and said how everybody has this issue. Everybody has this difficult, like this is a difficult person. This is not Your problem. This is a very difficult person that we all have this.

And so that was already out there. But then after dinner.

Well, so the build up was also that there were a couple of calls while I was there with my friendly siblings and I actually put on speakerphone with my problem person calling and had this like friction, the stressful interaction with my sister in law, kind of supporting, sitting right in front of me and like support giving me, you know, encouragement.

So the thing was after the dinner when we all came back to the house and the thing that they said was, what I see is the two of you are in a lot of pain. The two of you hurt each other a lot.

And the two of you are in fear that when it's, you know, when it's, oh, we're going to get together for dinner, the two of you stress out.

And when they see you, when that person, when you open your mouth and say something, no matter what comes out of your mouth, I see that person's face go stressed. And to me that was an utter revelation because I see myself as totally defensive, totally on the defensive.

I think this person thinks they're so much better than I am and thinks I'm a waste of time and all this. And what I was told at that point was, no, they're really afraid that you're better than they are. And I was like blown away.

And, and then there was a lot of detail about, because I said, well, I think their life is much better than I. Like, I think they're more successful in their life than I am.

And then, then came the revelations of like, no, this is what's going on and this is, you know, and this is how they experience social interactions.

And this, all this stuff which destroyed my conception of what their life was like and what their opinion of me was like, which come to think of it, was the validation of what I had said last time, that I only knew 1% of who they were, which is what they project to me is the 1% of what I see. And what they don't tell me, you know, when they don't tell me I'm insecure, I'm afraid of you.

And not only that, I'm afraid I'm a failure because all this other stuff in my life that I just felt just this, this overwhelming compassion, which surprises me a little bit because I wouldn't have been surprised or I mean, basically I'm a little bit surprised that I didn't have a vindictiveness, that I didn't have a vindication of like, you know.

Speaker B: 00:06:10

Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:06:10

Of like. Well, good. You know, instead I just felt, oh, my God, now I finally.

Be compassionate, because I've been struggling to be compassionate, because that's the practice. Like, go to the person who is your biggest adversary and wish them loving kindness. And I've been doing that. But there's something missing.

You know, there's a. There's a fear. There's a Still a restriction and withholding. And so in that moment, all the fear vanished and the compassion just flooded out.

And I felt like. So for the next couple of days, I was just really. I drove home through foliage, and I was in heaven. I was. I.

I cannot believe how relieved I am, how good I feel, and how I'm not criticizing myself. So. So that was really extraordinary. Now, at the same time, I got home and did my people at home. No.

Speaker B: 00:07:13

Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:07:13

Like, I got home and I immediately got myself in trouble. And in fact, my wife. We drove somewhere, and there was friction in the car. My wife and daughter.

And my wife got out of the car and said, you've been home less than 48 hours. You need to try harder. And it was the perfect thing to say.

Like, if she had been defensive or anything, it would have been worse, but she just said that, walked away. And I was like, you should have stayed at the car. Because I sat in the car and I cracked up. And I was like, oh, my God. It was.

I really thought it was hilarious. How. How right.

It was like, oh, I just had this major breakthrough, and I'm so compassionate and so, like, I'm so relieved of my burdens and everything and come home, I'm picking up people. Which is. Which is to say ingrained patterns are hard, and breakthroughs are important, but it's not a one and done, and you can't.

I can't devalue the breakthrough that I had by saying, well, how come I'm not perfect now? Right? And from all accounts, enlightenment is the same way.

Nobody has one and done enlightenment, unless you decide to go to Paravit Nirvana and die immediately. That people have enlightenment experiences and they choose to build on them or they don't.

Speaker B: 00:08:35

Right.

Speaker A: 00:08:36

So did I ever tell you about the guy I met who had an enlightenment experience as a grade student? This is an interesting story. He was a grade school. He was in grade school, and he was looking out the window at this golden light.

And so he told me about this experience, and he said, I had this enlightenment experience. And it sounded. I can't recite it, but it was congruent with and he had gone on to study later. Later on.

He didn't immediately build on it, but he remembered the experience when he was studying Buddhism and he. He said, yeah, that that was, you know, a genuine enlightenment experience, but he didn't build on it. So he's a very smart.

I don't know him very well. I've met him a few times at parties. Very smart guy, pretty accomplished in, you know, what he does. Quite conversant in Buddhism.

But, you know, when I asked him how his practice was, like, you know, whether he meditates, it was, well, my knees bother me. It's like, oh, my God.

Speaker B: 00:09:35

Just like, in that.

Speaker A: 00:09:36

Just really, like you had a taste of it and you can even tell me about it that, you know, that it was an alignment experience and yet you choose all this other stuff. So, I mean, it's kind of like conversations with God. Like, I speak to you all the time, right? And nobody listens, you know.

Speaker B: 00:09:55

Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:09:56

So anyway, but the bigger. I think the bigger point, that is just an example. But yeah, the bigger point, it's not. It's not one and done right.

And so I don't know if we said this before, but I think, you know, a lot of people have enlightenment experiences and don't know it. Oh. In fact, that was from the Householder's Vinya, which is the book I talked about last time or before.

That, that because we're not trained to pay attention, we miss our moments of clarity. We miss. And if. If we could pay attention and.

And put them all together and say, this is a moment of clarity and become more sensitive to it, and then say this is a moment of clarity and become more sensitive, eventually we'd see God.

Eventually we just become so sensitive to it that we see it everywhere, all the time, which is the kind of thing to talk about in conversations with God, which goes to two points.

So from the Householder's Vinya and from what we've been saying is intent and practice, and the intent comes first, like kind of the most trivial thing. And people beat themselves up for having good intent. In fact, we even have the cultural saying that undervalues good intention.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You must have the good intention in order to start. Unless. No.

Even if you are the fortunate person who has spontaneous enlightenment, if you do not then bring intention to that experience, then it is lost. And your opportunity, not your opportunity, is lost forever, but you're neglecting the opportunity. So intention is key.

And intention doesn't mean that you have to succeed or be Perfect. You can fail again and again. As long as you maintain your intention, you can progress. And that does require faith.

That does absolutely require faith, because in the face of discouragement, it's hard. And so persistence really means it really is a leap of faith. And that persistence is. Is. Is essential. Intention was the one. Oh.

And practice is the other, which is the same as persistence.

So I think that the reason I was so receptive to this event and that I was not, that I immediately felt to compassion, was because I've been sending that intent for months and months. I mean, I've definitely been laying the groundwork. And this is, again, the faith. Right.

The faith to do the work when you don't see the progress and to have the persistence and do the practice, because it's laying the groundwork and setting up your own receptivity, your receptivity to the opportunity that comes, and you can't choose it. There's another saying that enlightenment is an accident, and meditation just makes you more accident prone. Yeah.

So just some very, very heartfelt comments about the nature of. Yeah. Intention, persistence, practice. I really feel incredibly lucky and blessed. No question at all. In fact, that's what I.

That's what I said out of this conversation. It's like, I cannot believe you were able to tell me this. I feel like it's almost a cheat.

Like, because I do insight meditation, and this is the kind of thing that would come through insight. And I didn't have to have the insight.

I just had someone tell me, oh, well, actually, here are all the facts about how they're having a bad time and how you can be compassionate toward them. Yeah. So, yeah, quite a. Quite a powerful experience. And although I had a rough.

And, you know, part of it was just coming home, there's a stress of readjustment, and there's an expectation too, you know, of like, oh, everything's gonna be nice. And like, no, it's irritating. And. But I haven't. I haven't lost my intention. And in fact, the next. So part.

Part of my issue is anger, and that comes across in criticism and. And argumentativeness that really creates a lot of stress in my family, for my family.

And then the other is just kind of an inherent annoyingness of being, you know, nerdy or. Or whatever, even if I'm not trying to be right. So yesterday it wasn't as bad.

My daughter was very irritated at me, but I hadn't gotten angry all day. And I said. And she was very annoyed, and I said, look, I'm sor. I have been working on anger and I haven't been angry.

I have been annoying, but I'm not able to work on being annoying. I have to focus on one thing at the time. And. And she kind of, you know, was still annoyed, but she accepted it like she didn't shut me out. Good.

So, you know, I.

I guess there's another piece to kind of doing the groundwork for this, which is I've been interviewing my parents for oral history mostly as a way of engaging with them and doing something interesting because housebound. And part of that. So one of the stories was how my great grandmother was sent to a convent as a child to. For the convent to raise them.

And the story that has my mother's repeated is how the way they punished her was to give her a heavy stack of Bibles and make her go on her knees on the stone floor of the church and walk the entire length church on her knees carrying weight.

And so it's kind of trivial to identify that as a kind of original sin originating trauma that basically, you know, my mother's saying that's why your great grandmother was so messed up.

Speaker B: 00:15:31

Right.

Speaker A: 00:15:31

And she had problems. And then your grandmother was messed up and really mistreated me. And there were some stories about that.

And although she's not saying it and she's not making an excuse and she doesn't think she's messed up, that's the message. It's like, oh, and that's why you're messed up. And that's why my sibling is messed up.

But having that knowledge of being able to very explicitly see, wow, this goes way back. And this goes way back to some severe abuse, which is, you know, that's only one example. Obviously, that's a tough life.

Speaker B: 00:16:06

Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:16:07

You know, if that's just one punishment.

Speaker B: 00:16:09

Right.

Speaker A: 00:16:10

Is very helpful. So what I'm saying is there's a lot of groundwork that came from different ways.

I mean, this was just coming from getting to know my parents, to give them something to do during their day. It wasn't out of any, like, kind of intentional. Right. Let me learn. Right, right. It wasn't investigation, but it came out.

And, and so I know how it came all the way down to my problem sibling who then not only was a parental figure growing up, but has persisted in that behavior to this day with the entire rest of the family.

Speaker B: 00:16:46

Right.

Speaker A: 00:16:46

That's the. And. And so being able to see that so clearly is very, very helpful in kind of setting up the conditions to have compassion.

Which is just to say, you can have the intent to have compassion and you might not find it until everything comes together.

And I, so I just want to say again, you know, for those, for those on that kind of path, it's so important not to beat yourself up and not to give up and kind of under, kind of put all these things together and kind of understand it and build a place where, where you can essentially hang in there until it happens. Yeah, that, that's the bottom.

Now, it might be helpful to someone to elaborate a little bit on the kind of relationship that I've been dealing with here. And a big part of it is comparison, which I do all the time.

I know it's very, very common, but I certainly feel it, you know, judging myself against, against others. And so, you know, I have this sibling who lives very ostentatiously. In fact, even the word ostentatious I'll tell.

So, so the story is I called him ostentatious one day while I was standing in his office with. I'm trying to, I'm trying to avoid pronouns. And there's this eight foot tall mirror with something like a two foot wide frame that's all gold leaf.

It's basically this giant massive museum piece. It's probably not 8ft tall, I'm exaggerating, but it's massive and it is baroque and it is gold. And my siblings said, you think I'm ostentatious?

And I said, look at this mirror. That is ostentatious. I just call that nice.

But really the whole room, this, the private work office, the desk that's actually used to work on is the same style, like this baroque. Antique. Got to be, got to be antique. And for listeners who don't know if it's not more than 200 years old, it's not antique.

So that was just the example of using the word ostentatious, which was contested. I'm not ostentatious. Bespoke shirts from my guy in the city.

So there's actually, you know, a personal relationship with a person who makes bespoke shirts. I mean, I've never heard of someone in my circle of contact who has bespoke shirts. $500 shoes that drop the hat, trip to Italy again.

Well, of course we have to get a few thousand dollars worth of leather goods because we're here in Milan.

And if you're in Modena, then of course you're going to get a $500 bottle of balsamic vinegar that's been aged for 50 years because what else would you do? Just to say that there is this very elaborate facade of success which continues and continues, continues.

And I found out that the facade is not built on any kind of a foundation. It's an empty foundation.

And here I was comparing my levels of success to this and finding out instead that there was this compensation from this sibling for the accomplishments of the other siblings, which are more. Well, I think it's safe to say three siblings have advanced degrees. This one doesn't. I certainly have never perceived that as any kind of issue.

I've never looked down on a sibling for not having an advanced degree. Why, why would I? And frankly, I don't value my advanced degree that much anyway. It's more of. It's. That's a whole nother story. It's more of a badge.

And it was definitely a parental expectation. That's really why I have it.

So just to say that if, like me, you're someone who builds your identity around comparison with others, the facades can be very convincing. And there's really. I mean, we shouldn't compare ourselves anyway, but easier said than done.

But I think it's potentially helpful to realize that the facade of even someone close to you. And I say close kind of reservedly because we're not at all close. We're just very closely related. That's what I mean.

The facade can be very convincing and be empty. So again, don't get discouraged and don't get discouraged that you continue to compare yourself. Again, this is, you know, it's.

It's all about intent and persistence. I'm sure I'm going to.

Well, I know I continue to compare myself, but build the intent and the practice of not comparing yourself and lay your own foundations to be ready for the opportunity that comes. Whether it's an opportunity for personal success or an opportunity for insight and reconciliation. That's my next.

That's my next thing is I don't think the sibling is ready to reconcile. In fact, my other sibling said they don't have enough insight to ever want to. But I'm going to start.

This is my lead into that whole conversation with my siblings that I was looking, I was planning, planning to work towards a reconciliation because this is a negative relationship that's consumed my life.

It really is very much part of my identity because this sibling was just so emotionally influential, really the most emotionally influential person in my life.

Interesting, because I told about the family ancient history that, that, you know, of dysfunction and somehow it just skipped my parents direct influence on me and jumped to my siblings influence on me. But yes, the next thing is for me to continue my internal work and start to lay the groundwork for reconciliation.

And at this point, I don't think really the intent is to ask for forgiveness or to give for forgiveness, although I think that has to happen. I. I am definitely going. I.

I definitely intend to apologize for my role in the toxic relationship because I cannot say that I haven't taken opportunities, when they presented themselves, to take a shot and try to get the upper hand, so. Which obviously would reinforce the insecurity that's the root of all this mutual insecurity.

You know, I'm kind of feel like I'm starting on a new journey to lay the groundwork, to work towards reconciliation. And it doesn't mean, you know, just pick up the phone saying, hey, we gotta talk. I mean, I know that I have a lot of internal. Internal work to do.

So did that cover it?

Speaker B: 00:23:30

I think so. You had started saying something about a story about your mentor from.

Speaker A: 00:23:35

Oh, no, no. I was just saying that this is the kind of breakthrough that I think would have.

Would be of interest to my group mentoring and, you know, potentially helpful, if nothing else. It's just a.

Hey, this good thing happened to me, and I want to share with the group, but I think my mentor is really good at finding added value in something, you know, so I might get some additional insight or.

Well, obviously I can definitely ask for guidance in working towards, you know, what are the steps that I should be taking to build a path to reconciliation and what should that look like? So I was saying, you know, part of it is forgiving and getting forgiveness, but that's not really the goal.

I'm really feeling that the goal is to try to help this person, which obviously, you know, saying, well, but I.

But I think saying it never mattered to me that there's any difference in achievement or rather that I've never looked down on their level of achievement. I've only.

I've only been concerned about them looking down on my level of achievement is probably a good thing for them to hear, regardless of how receptive they think they are or say they are and, you know, apologizing for any harm, any hurt I've caused, even though they probably deny that they're vulnerable to hurt, would probably be helpful in terms of just let it sink in. Just let it lay the. You know, start laying the groundwork. I mean, it's like planting the seeds and, you know, watering the.

Watering the ground to work towards it. And then. And then I have some studying to do around what would this look like.

And so, you know, definitely this is the kind of work that's done in mindfulness meditation groups, you know, especially with my teachers, Tara Brock and Jack Kornfield. So. So, yeah, so I look forward to this journey.

Speaker B: 00:25:25

It's.

Speaker A: 00:25:26

It's nice to have something that. Well, to have some purpose that is hopefully helpful to. To someone who's in pain.

Speaker B: 00:25:34

All right. Yeah. That was a good one, though. I.

I mean, obviously I said offline, but I'm very grateful that you were open and sharing that experience, because I think that I know in my own. My own experience sometimes sharing deeply meaningful and personal experiences, sharing them outwardly is a risk, I guess. Right. And it's a risk.

It's a risk that whoever you share it with might just tear it apart and shut it down and tell you all the reasons why it isn't a certain way. So, yeah, I think it's important that we share. We, meaning humanity, shares these kinds of insights. I wrote down a number of things.

Some of them we've already kind of touched on, but I think one of them, you know, you.

The last thing you kind of mentioned was alluding to not necessarily knowing what others are going through or have gone through and whatever experiences have brought them into whatever being they are presenting at the moment.

And I think that that idea gets presented, but to really internalize that idea and to be fortunate enough to have experienced that in your own life, like experience the understanding or the. What's the word? I'm trying to think.

I'm trying not to use insight, but, I mean, it is insight, but I feel like it's whatever it is to actually experience having a perception of somebody and then having that perception kind of crumble to the ground because of a new awareness of things that you didn't know that meaning or being.

To say that if our intent is to present ourselves in loving, compassion, acceptance, forgiveness, and all those loving words to the world, when we start having our reactions to the events and things that are happening around us, being able to stop in the moment and remind ourselves that we don't know, you know, somebody cuts us off. I don't know. That person isn't rushing home for something really important. Right.

And what they just did, ultimately, was very little as far as a trespass on. On my own, you know, on me. But we let that fire of injustice boil up, and it's reactive, as you said.

Speaker A: 00:27:46

It's.

Speaker B: 00:27:47

It's. There is some biology behind it, but I also think it's. It's a bit habitual. And then I Think so. I thought so.

You had originally mentioned culture and our culture of negativity and then brought it back to there's a biological impetus for that.

And what I see unfolding in front of us is a bit of a manipulation by the media, be it whoever the interested parties are, to leverage that biological component and flood us in a way that, like, it feels like everywhere you look, you're being encouraged and rewarded for falling down that rabbit hole. And so it's natural and biological for us to love and to fear. Right? It is that dichotomy. And we do have that choice.

And what I heard you saying, and I think I agree, is we've really fostered both externally through our culture and also internally in our engagement with that, the negative side. And it. I had written down practice, and you mentioned practice a number of times, but it's like, it's not a one and done thing.

There's a reason why they call it practice. Right. And we, we don't go on a diet for a week and then expect that. Oh, now I, I feel much better this week. Now I know that.

And I'll never fall victim to the other way of thinking ever again. I'll never pursue a gluttonous feeling for cake or something like that. We all know that's not true.

And we need to extend that compassion and understanding to ourselves in this kind of work as well. That it's practiced for a reason. As we practice it, we set our intention. That's. That to me, is the choice.

That's the, the choice that we originally make where we set the intention. This is the way we want to be. And then we set on a path to continue to practice it. And as we practice it, we get better and better at it.

And you'll see eventually, hopefully, you know, you, you would see.

At least this is what I've heard and I, I think you said it on online was eventually, eventually, if you practice enough and see the, feel the effects and see the effects of continuing to make choices from a place of love that eventually you kind of only see that or you only choose that, and that ultimately is that kind of heaven on earth.

Speaker A: 00:30:17

Exactly. Or at the very least, you get a compensatory reflex.

Speaker B: 00:30:24

Right.

Speaker A: 00:30:24

So your negative reflex comes.

And now you've trained yourself so well that your positive reflex just follows immediately upon that and neutralize it so that you don't experience the negativity. It's there. Yep, it's there. That's, you know, the, the phrase I always love is having tea with Mara.

Mara shows up and you just say, ah, come, let's have tea. That's your only response? It's not oh, my God, or even shoo.

I found a quote to what you said, the beginning, about not knowing what people are going through.

So the poet Longfellow writes, if we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all his hostility. Just exactly what I was thinking when you said that.

Speaker B: 00:31:27

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm also reminded of a quote that I had read.

And of course, I don't think this is a measured quote, but it said something like 90% of the things we worry about never happen. Right. So we. We anticipate this future thing and we stress. And we experience that stress over and over and over again repeatedly.

And then in most cases, that thing never actually comes to fruition.

Speaker A: 00:31:56

Twain. There's a Twain.

Speaker B: 00:31:58

Okay.

Speaker A: 00:31:59

To that effect. I've had many troubles in my life, most of which never happened.

Speaker B: 00:32:03

Right. And, you know, I think that that's an important thing. And I've. I've shared that with my. With my daughter and my wife, I think, a few times.

And just when we're inclined to.

That's not to say we shouldn't be prepared, but that understanding and having the awareness that as we stress and elaborate on our anticipated experience, that we do in fact end up having that experience because we're stressed about it, in thinking about it and whether it actually happens or not, it did happen because it happened inside of us.

Speaker A: 00:32:43

And if we turn back to the book, this is exactly what, you know, one of the concepts in the book, which, I mean, again, it's one of those. Not universal concept, but it's a widespread concept of, you know, that which you pay attention to is what happens.

There's a Buddha quote of that, definitely. I think it's that. That which you think you become. But more than that, this idea of kind of attracting events. Right.

And if you're negative, well, you create your world. Yeah, you create your world. And so if you live in a hostile way, you will absolutely create a hostile environment.

Speaker B: 00:33:31

Right.

Speaker A: 00:33:31

For yourself.

Speaker B: 00:33:32

Right.

Speaker A: 00:33:35

And, you know, I mean, even if you're not outwardly hostile, all the things that you can do, you know, less. Less negative things will still have those effects, and the positive things will have those effects as well.

Speaker B: 00:33:51

Right, right. You had mentioned faith as far as doing this work.

And I was brought to think of that, the converse of that being that we have a fear of assuredness, like we're embarking on this with, I guess it goes back to the. Tied to the outcome, right? Embarking on this because the end result is or will be in our brain. This is what we want to happen.

Is whatever you want happen. You know, the, that there's a reconciliation or whatever it is that you're, that you're embarking on. That is that fear of a.

The fear of assuredness, meaning I'm fearful that the assuredness is not guaranteed and then become concerned that I'm doing this. But nothing will ever come of it or whatever it may be. And the faith is, is to be able to move forward through that.

And ultimately, I think, and it's kind of been said that it is assured if you, if your intent remains the same and you continue on the same path, you will bring into your experience the thing that. Which you want. You can go ahead and just say whatever it is.

Speaker A: 00:35:26

So, yeah, I want to say a couple of things about faith because, you know, if you're like me, faith can be a difficult word. If you see yourself as a, you know, rationalist.

You know what we're taught, we're using the word faith, but we're not using it in the Christian sense of trust in God. And I believe because my God told me to believe. That's where I think a lot of people, when you say faith, that's what they're thinking.

And this is a different kind of faith, really probably has parallels. But this is what I would call a rational faith. In fact, probably the most rational way of putting it without using the word faith would be trust.

The process.

You're engaged in a process when you, when you select a practice based on some tradition or even, say, based on, you know, conversations with God, not a tradition, but you're selecting a process. You trust the process. I'm going to work the process until I see some outcome.

And I guess the scariness is like you said, but what if I can't see the outcome? So that's where, you know, in terms of having faith, it's useful to have examples of success.

And that's, that's where, you know, a traditional faith can be helpful because there are many writers for the traditional faith that you can read and say, oh, this is what they did. This is what happened to them. So something with.

Well, I mean, I'm sure there are similar examples with conversation with God, but this is where I'm getting comfortable. And I think we both kind of feel like, you know, we're not trying. We don't want to Promulgate this book per se.

We just want to discuss how interesting it is. But. But it is. Oh, that was something I was going to say, which is, this volume doesn't seem to be very actionable, like.

So I'm expecting that comes later. In fact, I know it does because now they have courses and workbooks and.

And things like that, which, you know, so don't pick this up thinking that you're gonna have an actionable solution. I think it's a bunch of good ideas. I think kind of defining a path for yourself based on this book alone would be a challenge. I think, you know, I'm.

I'm more comfortable adding elements, adding these ideas to my practice because my practice is established from a tradition that has structure. Doesn't he say something in here about structure?

And I know he says he talks a lot about what we have been talking about institutions and specifically institutions defending themselves, which. Did you bring that in from here?

Speaker B: 00:39:11

Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:39:11

Okay. Okay.

Speaker B: 00:39:12

But because it resonated with me and what I see in my experience.

Speaker A: 00:39:15

Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. Sorry. That's all I had. Yep.

Speaker B: 00:39:23

And I guess as far as just opening openness to receive information, I guess that's part of what setting the intent and being ready to receive information that comes your way. I guess to some degree recognizing when you have an enlightenment experience or something like that you were talking about.

You know, people likely have these events that occur in their life, but based on either their internal evolution and place where they are and the circumstances, they may not be able to really. I guess that's where the ears, they hear and then kind of comes into place is to be in a place or your judgmental.

The part of you which is the biology that is inclined to pass judgment, value judgment on events and circumstances and materials to be able to relinquish that enough to be able to hear. A gem of wisdom when it comes to your ears and not immediately, you know, knee jerk reaction and throw it out.

Speaker A: 00:40:42

Right. So. So a couple of things. I mean, an enlightenment experience is a pretty big deal. Basically.

You know, I think they're pretty much always associated with sensations. Well, physical. Physical sensations, either of lights or of bodily sensations. So, you know, they're pretty. I'd say hard to miss, but.

Speaker B: 00:41:19

But you could interpret it, but not.

Speaker A: 00:41:20

Easy to interpret it. Right? Exactly. Exactly. So you might know that you experienced something, but think that you had an illness.

But the point I want to make is that there are many other experiences which the. The author of the Householders Vinia calls, I think moments of clarity and I think this is kind of referred to.

This is like one of the ideas in conversation with God of I talk to you all the time. You don't hear me.

In terms of moments of clarity, that's paying attention essentially to miracles of the mind, where your mind is behaving the way it should be suddenly.

And if we can pay attention to it and recognize it and not think, oh, that's just a weird thing, but say that's a thing that I can develop that, then that is very key. And then the other idea, which I, again, more from the book, more from conversations with God, is just being aware of daily miracles, right?

Like what is miraculous in your environment right now, you know, but so that's all part of. Of having. Developing this sensitivity. And I guess the caveat is you can't just decide to do it.

Okay, this is, this is where I think that intent is not going to get you very far to say, I'm going to pay attention to little miracles. I mean, yeah, for a little while you can say, oh, look at that, look at that. Oh, isn't that interesting? It's not going to last.

This is where you need to have a specific path and method.