Episode 3
Diverse Faiths, Common Humanity: Navigating the Religious Landscape
Tracking Wisdom
Episode 3
Diverse Faiths, Common Humanity: Navigating the Religious Landscape
Recorded - 03/21/22
DESCRIPTION
The discourse engages with the inherent contradictions within contemporary Christianity as juxtaposed with the teachings of the Gospel. It elucidates the phenomenon of denominational divides which proliferate within the Christian faith, where various sects often label one another as heretical. The hosts, Ryan and Peter, reflect on their personal experiences and observations of these divisions, positing that such disunity starkly contrasts with the fundamental messages espoused by Jesus. Through a critical lens, they examine how modern congregations frequently overlook the very hypocrisy that Jesus admonished in the religious leaders of his time. This exploration invites listeners to ponder the challenges of maintaining faith amidst institutional divisions, while also encouraging a spirit of inquiry into the very nature of belief and its implications for moral behavior.
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we critically examine the pervasive irony within contemporary Christianity, particularly in relation to its foundational Gospel teachings.
- The division of Christianity into numerous denominations raises questions about heresy and the validity of conflicting interpretations of faith.
- We emphasize the importance of questioning established doctrines, as challenging old conventions can lead to new insights and understanding.
- The discourse highlights the necessity for individuals to discern which teachings align with their values, advocating for personal reflection in faith adherence.
Episode Resources
- The Complete Guide to Christian Denominations: Understanding the History, Beliefs and Differences by: Ron Rhodes - A free book found on Google Scholar with a lot of valuable information regarding the topic.
- Conversations With God: An Uncommon Dialogue by: Neale Donald Walsch
- The 4 Seals of Dharma - Peter mentions the "Dharma Seals" in this episode.
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Keywords: Christianity and heresy, Gospel teachings, denominations of Christianity, separation of church, religious hypocrisy, questioning faith, spiritual exploration, teachings of Jesus, religious interpretations, Buddhism and Christianity, core religious truths, faith and doubt, compassion in religion, personal faith journey, religious plurality, understanding religious doctrines, denominational differences, love and spirituality, scripture interpretation, spiritual discussions
Transcript
Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution.
Speaker A:They are for informational and entertainment purposes only.
Speaker A:Welcome back.
Speaker A:In today's episode, the guides discuss the irony of current Christianity in context of Gospel teachings, separation into denominations, perceptions of heresy, and the value and purpose of seemingly contradictory teachings.
Speaker A:Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
Speaker B:Obviously, I have virtually no experience in Judaism.
Speaker B:You grew up Christian, you have been a practicing Buddhist for decades, and you are participating in a Reformed Jewish synagogue.
Speaker B:I don't have experience in that, but it's interesting that it's interesting to see the movement at least with respect to that denomination.
Speaker B:And in contrast, the.
Speaker B:What I would consider sort of the opposite with regard to Christianity, which is we claim to follow the teacher who was really clear about the.
Speaker B:The hypocrisy that was within mainstream Judaism back then and the not alignment, but the.
Speaker B:It's like the same thing happening now in Christianity.
Speaker B:And how many times I sit in church, I'm like, how do you not see the hypocrisy here?
Speaker B:How can you not see that this is literally what Jesus was talking about to the Jews back then?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, what would Jesus think?
Speaker B:Basically, I don't, like, think about this, and I don't think it takes, like, really deep thought to be able to reach that conclusion just in observing the behaviors of the institution and comparing that to the message that is clearly written in the Gospels.
Speaker B:Like, there's not much interpretation that has to come out of the Gospel to be able to make that connection.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I did find that interesting.
Speaker B:I did make mention earlier, and I didn't want to get too sidetracked on it, but the idea of Christianity in general and the amount of division that occurs within that faith structure due to the denominations.
Speaker B:So Christianity, as far as I understand, is like the mainstream religion that has the most followers in aggregate, but then is subdivided into thousands of different denominations, all with nuanced approaches to the teaching.
Speaker B:And to some degree, they're heretical to each other.
Speaker B:You know, like each denomination has a thing.
Speaker B:They're pointing at somebody else in the denomination saying, or, you know, in the.
Speaker B:In the overall faith saying, well, I don't agree with you on that.
Speaker B:And certainly, you know, to some degree, it started with Martin Luther, who again, didn't really set out to separate the church or create a new church.
Speaker B:It was just identifying, having passionate support of the.
Speaker B:The faith structure you were within and just calling out what you saw, you know, and then it ends up dividing off and, and driving down this other path.
Speaker B:The point of those comments was I want to be able to provide some comfort to people who may be concerned about hearing something that they believe is contradictory to what their knowledge and understanding or teaching has been.
Speaker B:And I just want to draw the alignment that Jesus was a heretic.
Speaker B:You know, like in the, in the time of Jesus, this message was not popular and there have been many, many teachers, including the fact that each of these denominations has their own idea about this, that new ideas and progress comes from challenging the old conventions.
Speaker B:It's okay to at least question and think about alternatives, even if it doesn't sway you to change your opinion.
Speaker B:I think it's important and healthy to always be questioning and thinking about what a plausible alternative could be.
Speaker A:So it makes me think that there are two potential listeners.
Speaker A:One is someone who is affiliated but is just curious about what someone else else has to say about religion outside of their religious framework or maybe even, well, what does someone else think about what Christianity is?
Speaker A:So that's the affiliated and then of course the non affiliated.
Speaker A:And I hope that really our discussion is helpful to both.
Speaker A:As you're saying it's okay to adhere to a faith and question.
Speaker A:And I think it's also, well, this is the big question for, you know, individuals is is it okay to adhere to a faith but not adhere to everything?
Speaker A:And I mean, it really is a baby bathwater question.
Speaker A:And for some people it's like, no, in, in order to be fai, you have to accept everything that's taught.
Speaker A:And I guess, you know, if you're in that camp, we are not for you.
Speaker A:You know, it's kind of like, it's kind of disclaimer like viewer advisory, viewer listener discretion advised.
Speaker A:But, but if, if you're not whole hog baby bathwater approach, then you know, hopefully this.
Speaker A:We're going to raise points that'll be of interest to you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, so I want to go back to the note that we have.
Speaker A:Is denominations of Christianity divided and heretical.
Speaker A:And as you said, the inclination or at least the phenomena of any given denomination of a religion pointing at another across the way saying you're a heretic.
Speaker A:That the teaching that I've heard from Buddhism, and I don't know if, if it's attributed to the Buddha himself.
Speaker A:I think it is, but it's essentially this questioning of denominations of different teachings.
Speaker A:And I think it was attributed to the Buddha because the Buddha taught for a long time and generated a huge amount of scripture, which of course at the time wasn't Scripture, it was oral tradition, but eventually became scripture.
Speaker A:And apparently a lot of the teachings are.
Speaker A:The teachings can seem to be contradictory.
Speaker A:And so what's up with that?
Speaker A:And of course, I mean, we see this, I think, in the Judeo Christian tradition as well, that you can find scriptures that seem to be direct, contradictory.
Speaker A:And the explanation that I heard attributed to the Buddha is that actually I really don't want to misrepresent that.
Speaker A:I just have it from my Buddhist studies somewhere that the reason is because there are so many listeners there, there are so many different students that need to be taught a thing, that you need many different ways of talking to people, you know, which goes to the modern concept of.
Speaker A:Of learning modalities, right?
Speaker A:Which is some people are better auditory learners, some.
Speaker A:Some visual.
Speaker A:And so basically, not every teaching is meant for you, right?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And just not every religion's meant for you.
Speaker A:And that's why plurality is good.
Speaker A:And that's the, the human reason for, for plurality.
Speaker A:It's not that.
Speaker A:Oh, people just don't know what they're talking about.
Speaker A:People can't get it right.
Speaker A:See, they don't agree.
Speaker A:That proves that none of these things are true.
Speaker A:I mean, there's.
Speaker A:There is absolute that that concept out there even used against science.
Speaker A:Well, look, these scientists disagree.
Speaker A:So clearly scientists doesn't know.
Speaker A:Science doesn't know what it's talking about, and it's all false.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Sorry to drag in some.
Speaker A:Some cultural issues, but if you find teachings that are contradictory, it's just because they're not all meant for you.
Speaker A:And I think this goes to the issue of Dharma seals, and, you know, what you talked about or just really our central thesis of there is a positive core to all religious teachings.
Speaker A:And the way I would put it is that if you're studying a teaching and it inclines you to take good care of yourself and take good care of other people and not harm yourself and not harm other people, then that's a good teaching and you should use it.
Speaker A:And if you come across a teaching, even if it's part of your own faith and it inclines you to harm yourself or inclines you to harm other people, then you should morally reject that teaching.
Speaker A:It's not for you.
Speaker A:It may be helpful to someone else because someone else may hear it in a way that does not incline them to harm themselves, to cause harm.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So that was my thought of denominations, right?
Speaker A:So basically, you know, if you're in a denomination that's pointing at someone else and saying they're heretical, you're grasping the wrong end of the stick and you're missing the point.
Speaker A:There is a place for your teachings and your denominations, and people just have to learn to stay in their lanes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:The absolute truth isn't about.
Speaker A:It's not in the details.
Speaker A:The details are there to help you find your personal way.
Speaker A:And the core truth is don't be a dick.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, I mean, I think I was brought to think of two things in that One is when Jesus was presented with the question of what's the most important commandment?
Speaker B:And he stated that the.
Speaker B:The number one is love your God with all your heart, mind and strength.
Speaker B:And the second is to love your neighbors as yourself.
Speaker B:And that's pretty much exactly what you were just saying.
Speaker B:And that I was just reminded of that scriptural reading.
Speaker B:And the second is actually from conversations with God again, which, again, I mean, it really, as I had said before, it's not my central text of spirituality, but it presented information in a way that made me understand, or at least believe that I understand the scriptural writings better.
Speaker B:And the, the context of that piece of the discussion was that the author was pleading with God to show itself in a way that was irrefutable.
Speaker B:Like, show yourself.
Speaker B:Why is there this ambiguity?
Speaker B:Just show yourself so that everybody can know you're real and, and there can be no question.
Speaker B:And God's response to that was, number one, what.
Speaker B:What form would you have me take?
Speaker B:And the answer was, well, whatever form you have.
Speaker B:And God's response is, I have no form that you would understand.
Speaker B:I could choose to take any form I want, but none of those forms would be irrefutable because I would present myself to one in one way and to another in another way.
Speaker B:And then the one would say, well, you didn't experience God because you didn't experience them the way that I did.
Speaker B:And that that could never be irrefutable.
Speaker B:And some would call it the work of the devil or whatever, but that there was no way to actually do that.
Speaker B:And that goes back to, number one, what you were just saying.
Speaker B:And also your comment about experiencing the divine.
Speaker B:And that I think inherent in that context of that, of that book in that section was in order for God to interact with each individual, it has to be an individualized experience.
Speaker B:And that you can't take that individualized experience and say this is the only experience of God.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I mean, I think, and I think this is the difficulty that a lot of people have dealing with these issues which can potentially mature over time, but certainly it's difficult to reconcile what is truth if it's not true for everyone.
Speaker A:So I mean, I, I guess that's really what we talked about before as scripture being sacrosanct, Scripture being literal and holy, that there's only one interpretation.
Speaker A:And obviously that's an institutional approach.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker A:I mean that's a, that's an assertion or a law which to my way of thinking is clearly an institutional human accretion on top of some central truth.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But I mean, again, I guess this goes back to what we were saying about the listener.
Speaker A:The listener who needed the advisory.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I guess that's kind of our, our mutual agreement is that we are going to come to this discussion completely open minded.
Speaker A:But I think that's something that we really aren't equipped to deal with.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I mean, someone who says, I don't know, what am I describing?
Speaker A:The person who is very literal and says it's a matter of faith, that I guess religion is only about faith.
Speaker A:I guess that's what it comes down to.
Speaker A:And I guess that's where we would have the essential disagreement where someone says, no, no, faith is more important than taking care of yourself or taking care of someone else.
Speaker A:I think that's got to be a central point of disagreement because I think there are definitely people who fully subscribe to that position.
Speaker A:Yeah, I do this not because I'm being manipulated, not because, you know, all these negative reasons, but because it's a really good thing for me to do.
Speaker A:It's really good for me to attack these people.
Speaker A:It's really good for me to, to harm myself psychologically in this way because my faith tells me, you know, I'm a bad person.
Speaker A:And, and this is, I, I have to suffer this way because of, you know, this scripture which is unquestionable or this teaching from my leaders who are unquestionable.
Speaker A:And so, so yeah, you know, basically I'm damned or you're damned because that's the way God wants it.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:You know, the, in these circumstances, God wants you to be damned to hell or wants me to be damned to hell because I'm just not a good person and I'm in this faith and the faith is making me suffer and that's a good thing.
Speaker A:And that's where I'm like, that's where I would have a very hard time connecting from a position of compassion.
Speaker A:I realized that what I was describing is a really horrible place to be.
Speaker A:And truly what my concept of hell.
Speaker A:And, and I think as we talked about before you know, what's.
Speaker A:What's heaven?
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What's my belief of heaven and hell?
Speaker A:And it is these mind states, whether sublime or hellish.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:And so for someone to be locked into a faith which is like that, I mean, that's not a good place to be.
Speaker A:And obviously, I would have compassion for that.
Speaker B:This show is just as much for our learning as anybody else, and I think that that's worth repeating because, you know, we're.
Speaker B:We're here for discussion.
Speaker B:We're here for learning, and we're here for compassion and understanding.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:Well, you know, we come from different perspectives, but we seem to align on a core message.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I would say, you know, our expertise is only in our opinions, because, as you said, it's a learning experience, and it's by having these conversations that we learn about our own thought process.
Speaker A:And, yeah, this is absolutely.
Speaker A:Our selfish reason for doing this podcast is because we want to challenge each other and challenge ourselves and learn from what comes out of our mouths and hopefully eventually from what our listeners have to teach us.
Speaker A:Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
Speaker A:Join us next time as we continue the discussion.
Speaker A:Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube and visit www.eth-studio.com for more information and content.
