Reflecting on 'Why I'm Not Excited About Nonduality Anymore' - Rupert Spira

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You're listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal

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truths that we see woven through culture,

consciousness, and the human experience.

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Ryan: Morning everybody, and

welcome back to another episode

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of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

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I'm Ryan.

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Peter: I'm Peter.

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Ryan: Today we're discussing a short clip

from Rupert Spira's channel titled Why Am

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I Not Excited About Non-Duality Anymore?

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Peter and I haven't watched this

yet, so we're gonna listen to the

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clip together, and then we'll respond

with our reactions and reflections.

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Here we go

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Michael: I feel that I am at a,

a empty point in my life and in

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my understanding of the teaching.

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And I'm sitting here hearing the teaching,

being in the meditation, everything

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understood, but nothing touches me.

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And it's not-- It's just

like everything was empty.

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And I feel maybe it has to do with

age or something that I don't know.

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So maybe it's this thing that

the old is not here anymore,

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but the new not here yet.

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And I'm sure maybe also, other

people might have experienced that

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this wave movement of interest and

understanding and enthusiasm also,

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and also joy to be in meditation.

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You know, so this started

to, yeah, meditating.

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Why not?

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But also, why?

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So, and I wanted to know if you have

any advice that you might give me.

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Rupert: Michael, are you

at peace in yourself?

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In general- Right … throughout

your day- I would say so … do,

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do you feel, are you at peace?

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Are, are you at rest?

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Michael: I think so.

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I mean, I'm here only

for loving and helping.

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Also, not that I have to think about it.

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Rupert: Yeah

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… but the reason I ask if you're, if you're

at peace most of the time i- is that

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it's true that when we first hear about,

I, and I know you've been familiar with

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the, the non-dual understanding for,

for many years, but when we first hear

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about non-dual, it, it's so exciting.

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It's so elating.

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We have, every day some

marvelous new breakthrough.

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So to begin with, we often experience this

kind of heightened sense of, understanding

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and appreciation and enthusiasm.

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And because it's in contrast with the old

life of anxiety and sorrow, and suddenly

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now there are these periods where there's

no sorrow, and there's no anxiety.

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So, and it's elating.

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It's exciting.

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You're full of enthusiasm.

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You're talking about it all the time.

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You're reading about it all the time.

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You're watching YouTube, going

to retreats, and it's exciting.

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But after a while, it

becomes your natural state.

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Michael: It is like this.

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Rupert: Um, You don't talk

about it all the time.

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You don't think about it all the time.

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You're not elated about it all the time.

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It's not a special experience

because you've kind of lost,

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almost lost the memory of the old

sorrow and conflict and anxiety.

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So you no longer have that

experience to contrast it with.

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It's just your natural-

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Michael: Wow

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… Rupert: ease of being.

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It's not, it's not bliss.

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It's peace.

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Or quiet joy, not, not ecstatic joy.

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There mo- there may be moments of,

of exuber- But it, it's … That's

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why I often refer to more and more

these days as a, I refer to quiet joy-

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Michael: Mm

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Rupert: rather than happiness.

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Sometimes happiness feels like something

bubbly and elated and, ju- just quiet joy.

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E- even that i- is, is too much.

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Just … That's why I asked

you if you were at peace, not,

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not whether you were happy.

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Michael: I am at peace.

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Rupert: Yes.

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in a way, Life it's just gone back

to simplicity- Yeah … and peace.

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Michael: Now, while you talk, this is

very helpful what you're telling me.

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Thank you.

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Ryan: I think I

misunderstood the thumbnail.

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I thought the clip was gonna be,

um, Rupert explaining why he was no

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longer excited about non-duality.

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Peter: I was gonna say it was

much more intriguing when it was

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Rupert asking the question, but in

fact he did answer the question.

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I mean, w- we, I, I think that we s-

I wanted to start the video because

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I wanted to hear why Rupert said he-

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Ryan: Right

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Peter: was not excited.

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But then he did, ultimately he did say

I'm not excited anymore, and here's why.

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Because it's just so-

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Ryan: Normal

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… Peter: commonplace, normal.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: Yeah.

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Ryan: What's your experience with that?

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Peter: Um-

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I can easily be wound

up by the right contact.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: Like, if someone is curious

about it, I will get really excited.

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I feel like I'm probably not where

they're talking about, but I think by and

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large, I'm much more relaxed about it-

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Ryan: Mm

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… Peter: than I was, say

for the first year or so.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: I mean, at the

beginning I was really thinking

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about, "Oh, how can I move?"

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You know?

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" How can I progress?"

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And I've only talked about progressing

recently in the context of not

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being interested in progressing.

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Ryan: Right.

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Yeah, I feel like

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I can appreciate this a bit.

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It's I think I've shared this before,

but I might as well share it again.

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I enjoy our work, I guess

to Rupert's point, right?

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He thinks about it when he's on retreat-

Mm … or somebody asks a question.

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But otherwise, he doesn't think about it.

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I really don't think about it.

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And not only do I not think about it,

often what I was finding was when we

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were, or I was, whatever, consuming a lot-

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Peter: Mm-hmm

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… Ryan: it was actually

distracting from the experience.

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Like, it almost got too in the

head that I was starting to lose

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contact with the experience.

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I appreciated Rupert's description

of joy and happiness because that's a

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repeated comment of mine is this idea

of elation in contrast to the idea

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of peace, or quiet joy as he put it.

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Peter: Mm-hmm.

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Ryan: And he even said even

that's a little too much, right?

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So like this, this calm and peace

is what I experience and pursue,

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and happiness or elation oftentimes

I experience as like an anxiety.

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It's overstimulating to me.

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Peter: So this is interesting

to me, 'cause y- you're touching

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on my day-to-day experience.

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Because what I was gonna do is I was

just about to walk back a little bit,

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from what I said about it being normal,

compared to when I first experienced it.

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I think compared to what

you were describing, I think

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I'm not quite that far.

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Ryan: Hmm.

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Peter: And, like I still

get into, I wouldn't call it

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ecstasy … I get into excited joy.

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Ryan: Mm.

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Peter: Because I find myself in

conditioned reactivity experience

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so often, that I'm like, "Ugh,

oh, this is really suffering.

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I'm still suffering."

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Ryan: Mm.

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Peter: "Where is the non-suffering?"

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And then I find my way back.

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And so, you know, I kind of say I

don't really meditate anymore…

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except in groups.

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Like I'll, I'll go to a group and there's

like a five-minute or t- 15-minute

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meditation or something like that, which

is just part of the gathering, right?

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And then the rest of it is

verbally shared experience.

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Or the GAE, you know, I do that for

90 minutes once or twice a week.

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But that's it.

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And to me, that's not that much.

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Like, you know, if you … For me,

if I'm not meditating every day, I'm

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kind of like, "Yeah, I'm not really-

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Ryan: Mm

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… Peter: in formal practice anymore."

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You know?

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But what I have instead, I think, is

what you might call living meditation or-

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Ryan: Mm-hmm

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… Peter: it's like, "Oh,

why am I meditating?

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Because I'm trying to find my

way back to peace because I can

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recognize that I'm suffering."

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: And so I'm walking myself

home, and kind of re-exploring

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what it's like to shift from

conditioned reactivity back to peace.

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Ryan: Mm.

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Peter: And along the way I

do a variety of practices.

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It's kind of like whatever comes

to me- … is what the m- you know,

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it could be, could be body scan, it

could be breathing, but it's never

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like, oh, 15 minutes of breathing.

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It's just like just a touch to remind

me, oh, I don't need to suffer.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: So I guess to say, the

non-duality isn't so familiar

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that I'm constantly there and not-

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Ryan: Mm-hmm

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… Peter: not interested and I

don't get excited about it.

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But at the same time It's not something

that I elaborate on a lot to myself.

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Ryan: Right

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… I don't think about it

and I don't talk about it.

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But when there is somebody who has a bit

of that recognition and is interested

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in talking about it, I do enjoy

engaging in some of that conversation.

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But that's rare.

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Like, I feel like you have more

opportunities with that than I do.

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Peter: Mm-hmm.

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Ryan: Other than, you

know, when we're talking.

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Yeah, I'm just trying to, focus

back on like the natural state.

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Meaning, before we really started

getting deep into these conversations

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a couple years ago, I had an

organic practice experience.

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And then, when we came into contact

with, say, Jeffrey Martin's work

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and understanding a vernacular and

a system behind to help describe and

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understand the experience a little bit.

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Peter: Mm-hmm.

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Ryan: I think that was useful

in understanding the experience.

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And I do think that going down

some of that more intellectual

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stuff sorta distracted me a

little bit from the organic.

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And I don't regret it, I don't

think it was a mistake at all.

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Peter: Mm-hmm

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. Ryan: And so now I'm trying to allow

myself to get back into the connection

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with the natural being-ness that

had organically developed prior.

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Peter: I find a lot of contextual clues

or environmental cues, I should say, not

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clues, are extremely evocative for me now.

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Like, being in the studio, talking to

you is like, that's all I do here, right?

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And so it's very easy for me to

settle in and be deep with…

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I mean, we don't pract- Mm-hmm We, we

don't, it's not like we sit down before

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we get on the mic- … and like, "Let's

have a silent, you know, moment."

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You know, I'm just here, like right now.

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And, and talking about the experience

is very, very deep practice for me.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: So I'm feeling like right now

very, very tender and open and vulnerable.

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And it's, it's what to

me is very familiar.

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It, it's, it's very much the

quality of going deep, like

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working with someone else.

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But this is the thing, is that it's

become a very social thing for me.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: I rarely am just by

myself and bring myself deep.

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Is this not…

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Is it rare?

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It's not that rare.

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I mean, I'm sure compared to

most people it's not rare at all.

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But, um, it's, it's weird 'cause

I, in a way I'm comparing it

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to when I had daily practice.

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Ryan: Okay.

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Peter: But when I had daily

practice, I hadn't really progressed-

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Ryan: Right

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… Peter: to a kind of awakening experience.

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Yeah, so I'm kind of, have this kinda

confused view of what is normal for me.

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Ryan: Mm.

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Peter: Or what is rare or frequent.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: And it's like, wait,

isn't this guy a teacher?

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Like, you know?

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But, that, that's something that

I've also come across with teachers

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is how much teachers suffer.

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Ryan: Mm.

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Peter: I mean, I, I really do feel

like Good teachers are bodhisattvas.

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Ryan: Hmm.

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Peter: In other words, they are,

enlightened beings who continue

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to go through suffering for the

sake of helping, helping others.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: It's not that.

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You're not seeking out suffering.

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It's that you're willing to experience

the suffering, and you see the value

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in having the experience because

you recognize how helpful that can

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be to the next person you talk to.

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Ryan: Hmm.

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Peter: So first of all, I believe in

that as a practice personally, but

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I'm also the beneficiary of that from

teachers who are willing to be open

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and vulnerable about their, their own

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suffering.

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And it's not like, "Oh, I used to suffer,"

you know, "before I w- got awakened."

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It's like, no, I know every day I can

go to the grocery store and be impatient

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with people, like, "Get out of my way."

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I mean, I'm not saying it, but- … you're

definitely having that experience of like,

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"Why are you, these people bothering me?"

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Because there's a way of accessing

compassion that comes through

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being with your own suffering.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: I'm not saying it's better,

'cause I don't think that's true at all.

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You can also not really suffer very much.

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You can also be more blissful and

then come into contact with suffering,

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and the compassion will be there.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: I think to be able to talk

specifically about this experience.

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You know, like, "This

happened to me last week."

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Right.

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Not like, "Oh, yeah, I remember

when I used to be like that."

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No, no, no, no, no.

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You know, right?

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And, and yet, and still model the

immediate presence of like, "Yeah,

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right now I'm present for you.

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Right now I am at peace, or right

now y- you can bring anything to me.

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It is not triggering for me.

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It is not too much for me."

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Right?

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So what am I saying about that?

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I see for me the value in it.

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Um, I'm … I, I basically know that

I have a lot of shadow work to do.

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I have a lot of work with the

conditioning to do, and really

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experiencing it is a very big part of it.

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And so I appreciate that, and I'm not,

feeling sorry for myself and like, "Oh

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my God, how much more work do I have

to do until I stop experiencing this?"

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Which was absolutely the way I was

four years ago, three years ago, right?

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Ryan: Right.

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Yeah.

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Peter: When I was, deep in practice

and like, "This isn't working," right?

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Like, I believed in it, and I was

committed to it, the practice.

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: But there were times

when … it was just like, " Why am I-"

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Ryan: Still suffering.

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Peter: "How long is it gonna be?"

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Ryan: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: You know?

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And then it comes up.

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I mean, I've definitely had

this conversation in a group of,

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"Yeah, what I'm wondering right

now is when does suffering stop?"

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And then coming round to, well, it's okay.

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It's just part of the experience

because we're still incarnated.

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: So there's still

suffering, and, and it's fine.

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And the, the return to

equanimity versus the "why me?"

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Ryan: Right.

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Peter: And so I guess what I'm saying is

it's that kind of sharing is so helpful.

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I mean, it's helpful when

I hear peers share that.

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And I ha- I have peers who I consider

so much more spacious than me, so

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much more graceful than I am, and,

and then I, I see them suffering.

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Ryan: Yeah.

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Peter: You know?

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And it's, like, really meaningful.

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And it's not, it's not a

si- schaden- schadenfreude.

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It's not like, "Oh, well, at

least they're suffering too."

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You know?

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It's like a, "Oh, I guess

they're not so much … You know,

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I'm not so far behind them."

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It's not that.

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It's, coming back into contact with the

compassion towards the suffering, and then

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also the recognition of the connectedness

and, and the community and the sameness-

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Ryan: Mm

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Peter: And , I'm hearing this come

back to me as kind of sounding

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like an attachment to suffering.

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: 00:16:48

Like, "oh, suffering's good.

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: 00:16:49

" And it's it's not that.

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: 00:16:50

It's just an appreciation

for the experience.

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: 00:16:53

Ryan: Yeah

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: 00:16:53

Peter: Anyway.

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: 00:16:54

Well, that was interesting.

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: 00:16:55

I hope that's helpful to someone.

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: 00:16:57

Ryan: Indeed.

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: 00:16:58

All right.

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We'll talk to you next time.

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: 00:17:00

Peter: All right.

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: 00:17:01

Take care.

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: 00:17:01

Thanks.

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: 00:17:01

Ryan: Bye.

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: 00:17:02

Peter: Bye-bye.

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: 00:17:04

Thank you for listening to

the Tracking Wisdom podcast.

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: 00:17:07

Join us next time as we

continue the discussion.

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: 00:17:10

Don't forget to follow us on

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: 00:17:13

and visit www.eth-studio.com

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: 00:17:18

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