G-K0F4D5MY2P The Pursuit of Happiness: A Dialogue on Science and Spiritual Awakening - Tracking Wisdom

Episode 40

The Innuendo of Happiness: Why Success Doesn’t Feel Like Enough

Tracking Wisdom

Episode 40

The Innuendo of Happiness: Why Success Doesn’t Feel Like Enough

Recorded - 12/08/25

 DESCRIPTION

This podcast episode delves into the profound insights of Dr. Marjorie Woollacott, a distinguished neuroscientist whose transformative personal experiences challenge the conventional materialist perspective on consciousness. We explore her awakening and how it catalyzed a significant shift in her understanding of happiness, emphasizing that success alone does not equate to fulfillment. Throughout our discussion, we reflect on the implications of her findings, particularly the interplay between materialism and the pursuit of true well-being, as evidenced by her anecdotal observations of fellow scientists. We also examine the metaphor of perception she employs, which illustrates the necessity of expanding one’s awareness beyond rigid paradigms. Ultimately, this episode invites listeners to reconsider the nature of happiness and fulfillment, advocating for a more integrated approach to existence that embraces both the material and the immaterial realms of experience.

Takeaways:

  • The episode highlights Marjorie Woollacott's transformative experience, which reshaped her understanding of consciousness and materialism.
  • Woollacott's journey illustrates the tension between scientific materialism and the emerging consciousness-first paradigm.
  • A significant theme in the podcast is the distinction between conventional success and true happiness, as discussed by Woollacott.
  • The importance of curiosity in expanding one's perception and understanding of consciousness is emphasized throughout the discussion.
  • The speakers explore the intricate relationship between happiness, ego, and consciousness, suggesting a nuanced understanding of these concepts.
  • The podcast concludes by recommending further engagement with the content from the Essentia Foundation, which provides valuable insights into consciousness studies.

Mentioned in this episode:

  • Essentia Foundation
  • University of Oregon
  • Kashmiri Shaivism
  • Bernardo Kastrup
  • Federico Faggin
  • Dick Schwartz
  • IFS (Internal Family Systems)
  • Marjorie Woollacott

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The views, interpretations, and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and guests. They do not represent advice, counseling, or official positions of any institution, employer, or religious tradition. All content is provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. Please use your own discernment and, if needed, consult a qualified professional regarding any personal, spiritual, or mental health questions.

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Keywords:

neuroscience, consciousness, happiness, spiritual awakening, meditation, Marjorie Woollacott, Tracking Wisdom Podcast, alternative medicine, materialism vs idealism, out of body experience, near death experience, Kashmiri Shaivism, personal growth, mind-body connection, scientific method, fulfillment, self-awareness, cultural conditioning, non-duality, emotional well-being

Transcript
Peter:

You are listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal

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truths that we see woven through culture,

consciousness, and the human experience.

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Ryan: Good morning everybody, and

welcome back to another episode

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of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

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I'm Ryan,

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Peter: I'm Peter,

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Ryan: and today we are discussing,

neuroscientist Marjorie Woollacott PhD.

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we came across her from another

episode from the Essentia

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Foundation, which I recommend you

follow and consume their content.

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Their interviews are quite

good, and their guest list is.

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Extensive and interesting.

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this video we are not necessarily gonna

speak on line by line or topic by topic,

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but the, commentary comes from a video

that is called New Evidence for Out of

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Body Experience and Perennial Wisdom.

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we will of course link this video

in the, description or chat.

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But Marjorie Wilcott is Emeritus,

professor of Human Psychology, emeritus

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Professor of Human Physiology and

member of the Institute of Neuroscience

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at the University of Oregon.

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And she was also chair of the Human

Physiology Department for seven years.

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In addition to that, she teaches Courses

on neuroscience and rehabilitation.

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and alternative medicine and meditation.

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And so this neuroscientist,

she, as far as a little bit of

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background and context, was a,

institutionally taught and successful

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neuroscientist and stout materialist.

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And her experience was an invitation to a

meditation that she was skeptical about.

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At least that's how

she seemed to frame it.

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It was open-minded, but didn't

seem fully on board and.

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Had the experience of overwhelming

openness and love and oneness.

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And some of this may be my own

language around her experience, but

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basically, I mean, she describes

it as an awakening experience.

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the point was that immediately

following that her, worldview

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changed around fundamental reality

and the nature of consciousness

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and the nature of consciousness as

fundamental and material emerging out

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of, or as a result of consciousness

as opposed to the materialist, view.

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Working sort of converse to that.

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With that, the first thing that came

to mind for me is this recurring theme,

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which we had talked about on a previous

episode of esteemed scientists who come

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into contact with the mystical experience

and then are immediately drawn to how to

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describe it and use the scientific method

to explain this experience of which they

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have intuitive understanding and knowledge

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Peter: And, and it draws them into

consciousness research and the.

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Non materialist perspective.

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Right.

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so one thing that's interesting

is, in her book list is a book of

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experiences of 20 some scientists,

describing their awakening experiences.

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Yes.

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Ryan: It's called Spiritual

Awakenings: Scientists and Academics

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Describe Their Experiences, so she

had this PhD in neuroscience and

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was an established neuroscientist.

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And then after having this

experience, and at some point on

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sabbatical, she did Asian studies.

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So that's back in 2000 when she

was on sabbatical and she came

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into contact with Kasmiri shivism.

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Which is a non-dual Hindu

offshoot or philosophy, from

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the Kashmir, area of India.

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One of the core teachings of

Kashmiri Shaivism is, is the.

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Fundamental nature of consciousness.

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And that seemed to be something

that was, that struck her.

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And obviously strikes a chord

with our worldview as well.

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she had this anecdote about

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her and also other, she mentioned

Faggin, who we spoke about mm-hmm.

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In the last episode, that by all

accounts of the material paradigm,

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they had achieved the success.

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Yes.

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And and basically done

all the right things.

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To air quotes, be happy or find happiness.

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And what she found, and she

related, Faggin had a similar

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experience that they weren't happy.

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They, had this success and they had the

credential and they felt like they did all

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the right things, the air quotes Right.

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Things.

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And yet they were finding

that they were not happy.

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Peter: Yeah.

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So, it's a very small part of the video

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But it's a very central

message To the video.

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as we were kind of discussing how we were

approaching this, we were noticing that

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the beginning and the end of the video.

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Really contain the core message and

all of the rest is a lot of interesting

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technical detail of how she comes

to these realizations and how you

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might like the, the evidence of the

near death experience is kind of like

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convincing that, consciousness is

independent of brain activity, right?

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Quite convincing.

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and it seems to be on the surface of it,

that seems to be the point of the video.

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But then as we discussed it, that's

not the point of the video, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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, The point of the video is how to be happy.

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it's just kind of packaged

in, basically a materialist.

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Context of, of, supporting , the

consciousness, first paradigm.

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Right?

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Right.

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So it's kind of this intellectual

discussion of all that.

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But for me, the takeaway is this

identification or discussion

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of the nature of happiness.

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Right.

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Because she starts out saying, this

is what is not the path to happiness.

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Yep.

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Which is what we're taught.

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And then at the end she kinda says,

this is what happiness is like.

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Right.

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, Well, okay, so I said, this

is what happiness is like.

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And I think really the way she

would might describe it is.

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This is what awakening is like

or being awake is like mm-hmm.

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In terms of that optical illusion

metaphor that she brings at the end.

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now, what I just did was I

equated awakening with happiness.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Peter: And so this is another

thing that we had touched on

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before coming into this, was our

relationship to the word happiness.

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Yeah.

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And you were saying that you're not

actually very comfortable with the word

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happiness and I find myself more and

more comfortable with the word happiness

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Or the idea of happiness.

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so yeah, I guess I kind of want to go

there and, and, and one of the questions I

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also had though around this very initial.

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Thing that she introduces and that, and

that you're pulling outta this, you know,

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that we're doing all the right things.

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Speaker 3: Mm.

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Peter: It's like, well, where's

that, where are those messages?

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Right?

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Like, where is it called?

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The right thing.

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And so I was thinking about this a

little bit, and certainly for me,

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and I imagine for most people, a

lot of it's from parents because

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parents want you to be happy, right?

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I mean, parents are pushing you in certain

directions to the extent that they push

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you, because they want you to be happy.

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And often to the extent

that they don't push you.

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It's because they want you to be happy.

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Like, well, my parents pushed me,

it was horrible and I don't like it,

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and so I'm not gonna push my kids.

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which is kind of where I am.

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so part of the message is from parents.

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It's like, well, you wanna

be sure to get a good job.

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You know why?

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Well, we want you to be happy.

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We want you to be successful.

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We want you to be successful

because we want you to be happy.

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So it's all tied to this accomplishment.

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I think it's really, really common

, in many cultures, for parents

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to attach happiness to success.

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In your culture.

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Which means having a position of

respect in your culture and, other

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aspects of success, whatever success

means, and very often it means material

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acquisition and materialistic success.

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Mm-hmm.

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having a job that pays well.

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. And that.

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Carries clout and respect

and social standing.

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And then if you have all those things,

you're more likely to be happy.

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That's the message.

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Not that it's gonna make you happy, but if

you don't have those things, you are gonna

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be much more at risk for unhappiness.

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'cause you're gonna have

all these problems and those

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problems will make you unhappy.

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And I think that's the

general parental message.

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And then of course, that's the general

message of the educational system is,

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well, you wanna do these things so

that you can take the next step, right?

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You're gonna get out of high school

and you're going to go to college.

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Or if you're not in a college track,

they're still orienting you towards,

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well, you're not college bound and

that's okay, but you're gonna have.

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This trade, are you gonna have

this way of being successful?

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Mm-hmm.

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And that's what we're preparing you.

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Mm-hmm.

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We're preparing you.

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Right.

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All schools do that.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then colleges do that too.

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We're preparing you for success.

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Why?

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Right.

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Because that's how you can be happy.

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Because if you're not successful,

you're not gonna be happy.

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I mean, that's the subtext

of all of this messaging.

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And I think the confusing

thing is it's not explicit.

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Like no one is willing to say,

here's how you're gonna be happy.

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It's all implied.

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It's all innuendo.

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The innuendo of happiness.

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And then of course, I like that

we're gonna write a book on that.

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And then of course, um, surrounding

all that, like you're embedded in this

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culture of commercial materialism.

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there's all that media messaging around.

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These people are happier.

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Look at all these people.

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Let's, idolize, promote,

focus on all these people who

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they're happier than you are.

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Right?

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Why?

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Because they're more successful, they're

more attractive, they're more famous.

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They're more like all these reasons.

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And why are they important?

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Because they're happier than you are.

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Or at the very least, they're more

successful than you are, and therefore,

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more likely to be happier, they have

more access to happiness than you do.

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Because look at all these images

of them having a good time.

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and these may be real people.

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they may be fantasies of commercials.

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Right?

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Or fantasies of fiction and media.

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But regardless, that's the messaging.

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and then there's some messaging, there's

some counterculture messaging of, well,

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here's some people who are dropouts

and they're brilliant and they're

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adventurers and they, you know, they're

mavericks and they, they don't have

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any regard for society, but they're

adventurous and they're this and that.

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Okay.

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And they're gonna be happy.

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Right.

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And so all these weird messages

about happiness that we have.

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So I was just trying to explore

in my mind a little bit.

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Like, okay.

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Where for me, that's what

messaging around happiness is.

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And then of course you can

go down the religious road

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too, which we've done plenty.

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So now I wanna come back to you

because of your comment About that.

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So, yeah.

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So what's that about?

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Ryan: so this has been a recurring

friction or resistance in myself over

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the course of our discussions, and

not exclusive to our discussions,

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but happiness is a term that you've

used frequently, and it's a term that

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many people use, as a noun and also

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the pursuit of, The Journey

towards happiness and the

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goal and pursuit of happiness.

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And my recognition of my own resistance

to this as a term is only more recent.

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since we've been talking more about it,

and I raised it because she mentions

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specifically this concept of happiness.

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The pursuit of happiness in the beginning,

in the context of the materialist paradigm

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of happiness, which as you said , it's

implicit, , it's extremely pervasive.

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Peter: success is

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Ryan: Yeah.

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even if the explicit language is

success doesn't equal happiness.

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It's still mm-hmm.

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the message.

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Right.

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It's weird the way that happens.

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Peter: it's like the comedy

bit of the person saying Yes.

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And shaking their head no.

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Right.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Ryan: And so I recognize that I

have this resistance to the term

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happiness, and it's curious to me.

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And so I took note of it for us to

have a little discussion around it.

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Not that I have an

answer, I don't know why.

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Although I'm starting to intuit, maybe

I relate the term happiness to this

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conventional understanding of happiness.

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And so when people say, I

want to be happy, I don't

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think that's what they want.

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And while happiness, I think is a

byproduct of what I think people want.

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Our understanding of what happiness

is, is skewed and distorted.

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Peter: A a and, and by contrast,

I feel quite strongly about it

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and quite comfortable with it.

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Right.

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And I, and I think I see hearing you talk

and having had so many conversations along

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these lines, I think I, I, I definitely

can speculate as to what the difference is

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between your perception and my perception.

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And I would attribute it to our

different relationships to coming into

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contact with fundamental wellbeing.

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where for you, fundamental wellbeing

as a familiar baseline creates

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a kind of hard act to follow.

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Mm.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so, Whereas for me, I think

I have a much, clearer perception

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of the difference right.

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Between unhappiness and happiness

and, and because I know life was

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like for me three years ago And

I know what it's like for me now.

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Right.

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And so to me, that's gone.

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That's like, oh, now I'm happy.

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That's very clear.

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and the way I would describe it

and, and, and I guess here's,

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here's where I can understand the

problem with the word happiness.

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because even.

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Talking to people with

non-dual experience?

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Well, particularly talking to

people with non-dual experience.

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Right.

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, I think there's a tendency for them

to be resistant to the term happiness.

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I think even my mentor said something

about fundamental wellbeing or,

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open awareness or whatever we're

gonna call that thing, that it's

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not really happy, it's peaceful.

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Ryan: So that's what I wrote 'cause

I've raised this distinction to you

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before where I've said I don't think

it's happiness that people want.

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It's peace and contentment.

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And you're like, yeah, that's happiness.

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Peter: But now I have a very

specific insight to that.

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Yeah.

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which is, from, Dick Schwartz

and, IFS internal Family Systems.

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He has the eight Cs, calm, connected,

compassionate, courageous, clear,

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curious, confident, creative.

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And these are the characteristics

of what, he calls true self.

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But he's also pretty clear that it's

what people might call the divine, or

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what we would call fundamental wellbeing.

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and none of these say happy.

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Right?

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Right.

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and I think my experiences that, alright,

so I was, I was having an experience

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on the beach, just sinking and feeling

good and thinking about what my mentor

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said of like, oh, it's really not

happiness, it's, it's more contentment.

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Right?

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And I realize, well, what's going on here?

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Why do I have this excitement, this.

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Energetic positive feeling mm-hmm.

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That I call happiness.

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Like, God dammit, I feel happy.

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I don't know what you're talking about.

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Like, it's not ha like I feel happy

and I, I looked at the way I was

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experiencing it and it's like, I

think happiness is the ego coming into

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contact with fundamental wellbeing.

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If you are completely away

from your ego, then I think you

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don't have a sense of happiness.

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Okay.

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I think you can have love,

compassion, joy and equanimity, which

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I'm pulling from, from Buddhism.

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But to me those are the characteristics

of fundamental wellbeing.

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as well as the eight Cs of Schwartz.

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but again, none of the,

I mean, joy is kind of.

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There's a happiness to it,

but it's kind of not the same.

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I think they're different.

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There's a Yeah.

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'cause when I am like sinking in

deeply, I'm aware of a joy that's

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not what I would call happiness.

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But when I allow my ego to resurface

out of that, that's, that's where it is.

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So I think

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you have to be more in touch with

an ego identity than, a lot of

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people in non-dual experience.

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Yeah.

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where it's like, yeah, I

don't care about happiness.

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Right.

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Happiness isn't real.

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This isn't real.

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And there's That depth of

non-duality where you lose

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that experience of happiness.

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'cause you're so far below

the surface of experience.

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Hmm.

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You're not at surface experience anymore.

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You're deep in awareness.

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Right.

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you're below the, the surface of senses.

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Right.

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So I think happiness, I, I think what

I experience is that happiness is tied

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to connection to the senses and to the

ego, which is to say the material world.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right.

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And I think, so happiness is the result

of integration of consciousness with.

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Material experience or ego experience.

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Okay.

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Of this open awareness, non-ego,

maybe non-dual experience, if

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you call it that, merged with the

ego experience and it's, yeah.

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Does that, does that make sense?

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Ryan: I think it does.

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I think it also highlights where

the resistance kind of comes from.

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One thing you did describe, which is

a characteristic I associate with the

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term happiness, which is excitement.

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I think that's what people

perceive happiness to be.

355

:

. . Like when I'm excited,

I'm happy kind of thing.

356

:

And I don't think that's

true, but I think.

357

:

Many people think of happiness , as

that being exciting feeling

358

:

Peter: of

359

:

Ryan: being excited.

360

:

Peter: And I think it's

a cultural bias maybe.

361

:

Right.

362

:

Definitely.

363

:

I would agree with you in our culture.

364

:

Sure.

365

:

Okay.

366

:

Yeah.

367

:

That's fair.

368

:

Like, oh, peacefulness is boring.

369

:

Right, right.

370

:

That's not happiness.

371

:

I mean, of course there are many

people who are looking for peace.

372

:

And they think, I mean, and, and they

would say that would bring me happiness.

373

:

Right, right.

374

:

But that's not typical in our culture.

375

:

Right.

376

:

I think what you're saying is more typical

in our culture that there's this idea

377

:

of, and again, it's cultural imagery.

378

:

Speaker 3: Sure.

379

:

People

380

:

Peter: doing exciting things and

smiling and being together with.

381

:

romantic.

382

:

Context and, or, or potential

romantic context, right?

383

:

Like, you know, you're at a party,

you're at a bar, you're members of,

384

:

you know, sexually attractive people,

whoever's sexually attractive to you.

385

:

like, that's how you

portray happiness in media.

386

:

Ryan: I think fun comes along

with the idea of happiness,

387

:

at least in our culture.

388

:

Sure.

389

:

I mean, , I'm acknowledging that my

perspective comes almost exclusively from

390

:

my experience in our American culture.

391

:

Right?

392

:

Right.

393

:

but fun is, I think,

associated with happiness.

394

:

And I think that, number one, I

agree and I have said before, I

395

:

think Joy has a different qualitative

state than happiness as a term.

396

:

In my own perception, joy

is different than happiness.

397

:

Peter: Mm-hmm.

398

:

Ryan: And I'm much more comfortable

with the term joy, peace,

399

:

contentment, all these things.

400

:

Now you mentioned, you

know, the non dualist

401

:

sort of worldview from a

disconnection, from ego identity.

402

:

But I feel like this is the

way I experience things.

403

:

I don't qualify the things that

I experience as happiness, and I

404

:

also don't think that I'm deep into

non-dual, you know what I mean?

405

:

Peter: Yeah.

406

:

so here's another thing that comes to

me is that happiness is conditional.

407

:

Mm-hmm.

408

:

Happiness is tied to conditions.

409

:

Mm-hmm.

410

:

And I would say that from my

experience, like I am happy

411

:

in these conditions, right?

412

:

like, I love my conditions right now.

413

:

Mm-hmm.

414

:

but that's why, and that's I

think is the same as saying it's.

415

:

Ego based.

416

:

Right.

417

:

whereas Joy, which you're more

comfortable with, is unconditional.

418

:

Right.

419

:

joy is something that comes to us in,

it's a characteristic of sinking in.

420

:

Yeah.

421

:

yeah, unconditional joy is just a

thing that we talk about in these

422

:

circles of awakening experience.

423

:

Right.

424

:

we might say, oh, I see this and

joy arises, but it's different.

425

:

It's a correlation not causation.

426

:

Mm-hmm.

427

:

Right?

428

:

Yes.

429

:

Yeah.

430

:

it's not a causal thing.

431

:

Right, So joy versus happiness.

432

:

I'm really convinced that

has a lot to do with ego.

433

:

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

434

:

Yeah.

435

:

It, I agree.

436

:

Peter: It has to do with, conditioned

experience, which is not terrible.

437

:

Right.

438

:

It's just, it's not everything.

439

:

And that's the problem with it is

our relationship with conditions

440

:

saying that it's, I mean, that's

the materialist view, right?

441

:

I mean, literally it's what,

what, what is material?

442

:

E existence.

443

:

What is space time?

444

:

It's conditions.

445

:

Yeah.

446

:

and being tied to that

is contrary to what?

447

:

Contrary to, to na true nature.

448

:

Right.

449

:

but it doesn't mean,

450

:

it doesn't mean that you

can never be happy in it.

451

:

And maybe in a sense you

can only be happy in it.

452

:

It's just you shouldn't be fooled

that it is the source of happiness

453

:

or that it is permanent happiness.

454

:

Hmm.

455

:

because I think, well, I

think you can't be happy in it

456

:

without including true nature.

457

:

I think that's okay.

458

:

That's the problem is the tendency

to deny true nature or neglect true

459

:

nature, and then seek cap happiness

and conditions and you won't.

460

:

Right.

461

:

I think It's the meeting of the

two that creates what we would call

462

:

happiness, what we would recognize as

happiness, as like a true happiness.

463

:

True happiness.

464

:

And then is the meaning these

other things would be the

465

:

Ryan: conditions of material with

the fundamental nature of true self?

466

:

Peter: Yes.

467

:

And I think without that contact.

468

:

Then you end up with this

superficial happiness Of

469

:

materialism, which is so familiar.

470

:

And so unsatisfying

471

:

Ryan: So, is it just a

terminology thing ? I agree.

472

:

. I think with what you're saying,

and yet I still have this resistance

473

:

to using the term happiness.

474

:

Even if we define happiness as what you're

saying, I almost feel like we're forcing

475

:

a term into something that it isn't.

476

:

Like, is there a difference between

happiness and peace and contentment?

477

:

And I guess it sounds like you're saying

there is because there's the egos,

478

:

, Peter: You know, the way I

described it was the dog reaction.

479

:

It's this jumping tail wagging Yeah.

480

:

Tongue wagging Yes.

481

:

Energy.

482

:

Yes.

483

:

And that's the way I felt on the beach.

484

:

I was like lying there quietly,

really looking at the sky.

485

:

I'm like, oh my God, this

is so exciting to be okay.

486

:

Peaceful.

487

:

okay.

488

:

It was very exciting to be peaceful.

489

:

So that is different.

490

:

Yes, it is different.

491

:

And that's why, that's why I feel,

I, I feel quite, I mean, I'm talking

492

:

about my own experience, of course I'm

not saying this for anybody else, but

493

:

for me, I feel completely confident in

saying, this is what happiness is to me.

494

:

And you think that that

495

:

Ryan: is the pursuit.

496

:

Or do you think that's just symptomatic

of achieving the true pursuit?

497

:

Peter: Now I don't know, because

I mean, I'm talking about, I'm

498

:

talking about an experience.

499

:

I don't know what a pursuit is.

500

:

No,

501

:

Ryan: no.

502

:

Well, do I wish someone

503

:

Peter: had told me to

504

:

Ryan: pursue this?

505

:

No.

506

:

No, no.

507

:

That's not, that's not what I mean.

508

:

I mean, when we say things like, I want to

be happy or I'm, I'm looking to be happy,

509

:

that is what I mean by like the pursuit.

510

:

And what I think people mean by that is I

want to experience peace and contentment.

511

:

Not that they want to

experience happiness, but that

512

:

happiness can be a byproduct of

513

:

achieving peace and contentment.

514

:

Yeah, that you don't, you don't

pursue happiness, you pursue peace

515

:

and contentment, and from there you

may like what you're describing.

516

:

I don't experience very often, if

at all, and in fact, I don't like

517

:

that kind of excitement when I

feel it, I have said this before.

518

:

Mm-hmm.

519

:

When I feel that It comes off as

an anxiety, that kind of mm-hmm.

520

:

Stimulus makes me

521

:

Peter: uncomfortable and, and I

can speculate as to why that is.

522

:

Why because there's a recognition

of the impermanence of it.

523

:

That makes you anxious,

that makes you anxious.

524

:

It just gave me chills.

525

:

and so I, I was gonna elaborate a

little bit on, because I, you know, I

526

:

was saying, oh, I love my conditions.

527

:

I, you know, it's not perfect.

528

:

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

529

:

Peter: Like, I have some challenges.

530

:

I'm dealing with, some concerns and a lot

of imperfections going on in my situation.

531

:

I also have a lot of great advantages

and great, like, positive conditions

532

:

going on, but it's not perfect.

533

:

Right?

534

:

But the thing is, I'm able to

recognize the imperfection without

535

:

attributing any significance to it.

536

:

And yet.

537

:

I definitely have a sense of ego.

538

:

I definitely have a sense of, I mean,

it's not just pure presence, it's not

539

:

just, it's not just peace and contentment.

540

:

Ryan: Right.

541

:

Peter: Right.

542

:

There's an appreciation of having

been outside of peace and contentment.

543

:

Sure.

544

:

And, and I think that's, for me,

a big piece of the difference.

545

:

the other thing is pursuing

peace and contentment.

546

:

That.

547

:

Doesn't resonate with me.

548

:

And I think that what would often

happen with pursuing peace and

549

:

contentment and succeeding is

that you end up dropping ego.

550

:

And then having peace and contentment

and not experiencing happiness.

551

:

it's almost like, closer

to Nirvana extinction.

552

:

Mm-hmm.

553

:

Right.

554

:

Of loss of ego, loss of the suffering

of ego, and then peace and contentment.

555

:

And that's where you are.

556

:

And there may be joy arising, but it's

not what you would recognize as happiness.

557

:

Right.

558

:

Right.

559

:

And you wouldn't talk about it

the way I'm talking about it.

560

:

Like I, I, I, I'm enjoying this.

561

:

This is like, I like this because

there's too much detachment, right?

562

:

Mm-hmm.

563

:

It's like, this is

fine, this is permanent.

564

:

This is true.

565

:

This is the way it is and it's got

all this other stuff like confidence.

566

:

And I can see all these other aspects

to it, but I think without the,

567

:

God, I'm, the more I say this, the

more I'm convinced of it without

568

:

some, I , I wanna say involvement

of ego, like a definite contact

569

:

of, a healthy dose of ego.

570

:

Okay.

571

:

You know, that's not, it's not

ego, it's not the unhealthy

572

:

ego where the ego is saying.

573

:

I'm all there is.

574

:

Mm-hmm.

575

:

And it was just pulls me back to,

McGilchrist's, two hemisphere.

576

:

Yep.

577

:

Brain thing of the left brain.

578

:

Just saying

579

:

that this is all there is,

580

:

logic is the only thing that's valid.

581

:

this is the only reality.

582

:

You know, I've got my words, I've got

my analysis, and I can, do this science

583

:

and see these things and this is it.

584

:

and everything that I say is true and,

everything that I know is all that exists.

585

:

Mm-hmm.

586

:

That's ego.

587

:

Ego.

588

:

Right.

589

:

Right.

590

:

And then, the right hemisphere can

come in and say, ah, just that.

591

:

Ryan: So the one experience that I was

thinking was skiing, I've mentioned many

592

:

times before my affinity with skiing.

593

:

It's, I guess, one of the purest

activities that I participate in,

594

:

but it's very in the moment, which is

obviously lovely as well because you're

595

:

extremely present in that moment.

596

:

Mm-hmm.

597

:

there is an energy and an excitement that

isn't unpleasant for me, especially at

598

:

speed, which is the way I like to ski.

599

:

Mm-hmm.

600

:

but as we were talking and I was

thinking about it, I still think that

601

:

it, it's more in line with joy mm-hmm.

602

:

Than happiness.

603

:

Mm-hmm.

604

:

But less so peace.

605

:

'cause there's mm-hmm.

606

:

There's an activity going on.

607

:

Mm-hmm.

608

:

There.

609

:

Um, so am I happy when I'm

610

:

Peter: skiing?

611

:

And, what's interesting to me is

that makes complete sense to me.

612

:

like, I have no sense of like, oh no,

well then that means you're happy.

613

:

Right?

614

:

It's like, oh no, that makes

complete sense that there's an

615

:

absorption and a joy of flow state

that is distinct from happiness.

616

:

Happiness.

617

:

Ryan: And then my other question is, , I

guess this may be rhetorical, but I

618

:

have had people who are close to me say,

619

:

you don't seem happy I think you're

unhappy, and I am certain I am

620

:

not unhappy, but the absence of

happiness does not mean unhappy.

621

:

Mm-hmm.

622

:

Mm-hmm.

623

:

And so that is a distinction that I've

had people observe about my demeanor

624

:

and presence, that when I'm content and

peaceful sometimes is read as unhappy.

625

:

Peter: So I think what's very typical is

626

:

to look for specific cues,

interpreting someone's happiness state.

627

:

Right?

628

:

Yeah.

629

:

In particular, happiness.

630

:

Right.

631

:

And it's like you, you're

not displaying the markers.

632

:

Mm-hmm.

633

:

Therefore you do not fall

into this definition.

634

:

Mm-hmm.

635

:

Because.

636

:

When I interact with people, this is

what my markers are for this interaction.

637

:

I mean, and that's an

interpersonal Thing, right?

638

:

That's a perception,

interpersonal perception thing.

639

:

Right.

640

:

Of you look happy to me,

you don't look happy to me.

641

:

And obviously people's perceptions

are entirely dependent on their state.

642

:

Ryan: I wonder if that's partially why

continue to have this resistance to it?

643

:

Sure.

644

:

Right.

645

:

I mean, that makes sense to

the term and as happiness.

646

:

Sure.

647

:

That totally

648

:

Peter: makes sense.

649

:

Ryan: But I like your, your

description of the beach.

650

:

That makes sense to me.

651

:

Like.

652

:

That's an appropriate use of happiness.

653

:

Peter: I was doing absolutely nothing.

654

:

I was like, my wife was,

reading or something.

655

:

She was sitting up mm-hmm.

656

:

I was lying back, I was looking

at the sky, but I wasn't looking.

657

:

I was just, my eyes were open.

658

:

I was appreciating the blue and I

was just experiencing what I was

659

:

experiencing and just had this very

absolute puppy dog image , and, and,

660

:

and then I was intentionally like,

okay, this is a great place to sink in.

661

:

and yet I wasn't sinking in, in

a way where there was a lot of

662

:

quiet, and a lot of spaciousness.

663

:

Like that's not where the focus was.

664

:

The focus was on enjoyment mm-hmm.

665

:

Of the experience, and

it had this energy to it.

666

:

Mm-hmm.

667

:

The enjoyment of this experience of doing

nothing at all and making no effort to

668

:

do anything of at all or change anything

at all had the quality of activity.

669

:

Ryan: I picked up on the word

enjoy, and there are many things

670

:

I enjoy, and of course the, the

construct of the word brings is joy.

671

:

Mm-hmm.

672

:

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

673

:

Ryan: But that, those are

different as well, right.

674

:

that happiness

675

:

maybe is a result of enjoyment, but the

enjoy and happiness are not synonyms.

676

:

Peter: I don't know.

677

:

I'm trying to get any more insight

into what that experience was like.

678

:

The puppy dog imagery is perfect.

679

:

I mean.

680

:

It was funny because, I had

this response of, dude, you're

681

:

being a, a, what is it called?

682

:

Downer.

683

:

A kill buzz.

684

:

Kill..

685

:

Um, because part of what I was doing

while we're having this conversation

686

:

was checking into my experience.

687

:

Sure.

688

:

And , you know, how present am I?

689

:

And I think I'm, I'm very present.

690

:

Like, I'm not thinking

about what I'm saying.

691

:

Mm-hmm.

692

:

I'm not, I'm not thinking

about, well how will this sound?

693

:

Or what is it gonna be like

afterwards or anything like that.

694

:

I'm looking back a bit 'cause I'm

recalling the beach, but other than that.

695

:

I feel very present and I still have this

sense of what I would call happiness.

696

:

my ego is definitely engaged because

my intellect is engaged in description

697

:

and analysis and trying to communicate

and trying to share the experience.

698

:

Successfully.

699

:

So there's an engagement

that's different from just

700

:

peaceful cont contentment.

701

:

Sure.

702

:

Right?

703

:

Yep.

704

:

and there's an activity.

705

:

Mm-hmm.

706

:

I mean, we are, we are interacting.

707

:

There's an activity here.

708

:

Ryan: I mean, maybe I

do experience happiness.

709

:

I don't experience the puppy

dog happiness very often.

710

:

I don't, I would to the point that

I would say I never feel that way.

711

:

Do I never, ever feel that way?

712

:

Obviously at some point in my life

I have felt that way, but it is

713

:

not a common experience for me.

714

:

And that illustration is something

I would definitely recognize as.

715

:

Pure and true happiness, meaning that

dog is in that moment and just absolutely

716

:

sublime and excited about that moment.

717

:

I guess going back to my initial

question here, say when I'm painting or

718

:

something, I am enjoying that moment.

719

:

There's not that excitement.

720

:

Mm-hmm.

721

:

But maybe it is different than just

inactive peace and contentment.

722

:

That there is an activity, there

is an engagement going on and

723

:

that there is an enjoyment and

recognition of that activity.

724

:

Peter: I think some people

call flow state happiness.

725

:

Okay.

726

:

I mean, I think, you know.

727

:

Sounds very familiar.

728

:

Like, oh, that's when I'm truly happy.

729

:

Sure.

730

:

Right.

731

:

Sure.

732

:

People are describing, they're like,

when I am out on the river and I'm this,

733

:

and that's when I'm truly happiness.

734

:

Mm-hmm.

735

:

This is where I go to be happy.

736

:

Okay.

737

:

And so I think that there is

a version that Of happiness.

738

:

Of happiness that's that.

739

:

But to your point, right.

740

:

Would someone then go out with a set of

binoculars and look at that person and

741

:

say, oh, they, they look happy to me.

742

:

They would probably say,

oh, they don't look happy.

743

:

Like, their face could be, called RBF.

744

:

Right.

745

:

Right.

746

:

And like you couldn't read it.

747

:

But the, but the subjective

experience would be like, I

748

:

am, I've never felt better.

749

:

Yes.

750

:

Right.

751

:

Right.

752

:

So I think Okay, there are versions.

753

:

Sure.

754

:

Obviously, I'm just sharing like, you

know, you're telling me your, your

755

:

version of not knowing what happiness

is, and I'm telling you my version Right.

756

:

Of like, oh, this sounds very familiar.

757

:

And just to say, this doesn't mean

that every hour of my past week

758

:

of course, has been like this.

759

:

my wife would certainly tell

it like, oh no, he's a mess.

760

:

But I have a very easy recognition of

being able to look at my life and say,

761

:

I

762

:

Yeah, yeah.

763

:

You know, I am, happy.

764

:

I mean, obviously right now talking

to you, I'm not dealing with any

765

:

of those imperfections that exist.

766

:

And when I.

767

:

Come into contact with

them and, oppose them.

768

:

I'm not happy anymore.

769

:

Right, right.

770

:

but that's.

771

:

Dealing with, and grappling, With life and

not just being in complete flow with life.

772

:

Ryan: I don't choose the term happiness,

but like, if somebody asks, are you happy?

773

:

I, I, well, yeah, I'm happy.

774

:

Get off my back.

775

:

Well, and because it's, you

know, it's a convenient term

776

:

people, people understand, but

777

:

Peter: its better than saying I'm fine.

778

:

Ryan: Going back to the converse.

779

:

how much unhappiness do I experience?

780

:

And I would say very little.

781

:

, How do you describe your

experience of unhappiness?

782

:

Do you actively have

unhappiness frequently still?

783

:

Peter: I think it's objectively true.

784

:

I mean, this goes to

relationship to conditioning,

785

:

which we've touched on before.

786

:

It's possible to be in fundamental

wellbeing and let your conditioning run

787

:

and be okay with like, I'm being very

reactive, but it's not bothering me.

788

:

so I'm not unhappy.

789

:

It's your problem.

790

:

It's like I'm perfectly content.

791

:

I'm not unhappy.

792

:

and for me, I don't

experience it that way.

793

:

'cause my orientation is one of,

794

:

I don't I just, in my framework it's

like, oh, I don't want to be that way.

795

:

and, so I will call it

unhappy and it feels unhappy.

796

:

It feels unhappy to recognize that.

797

:

, I'm not behaving outta presence.

798

:

And you can recognize that.

799

:

I was triggered, I was caught up.

800

:

I was, my condition program was

running and it felt terrible.

801

:

Ryan: Mm.

802

:

Peter: and I was caught in it.

803

:

And it's like, yeah.

804

:

that's not happiness.

805

:

and people would recognize,

You're not happy.

806

:

Ryan: not happy is different

than unhappy in my opinion.

807

:

Peter: Okay.

808

:

Yes.

809

:

so do I have unhappiness?

810

:

Yeah.

811

:

I can't see how else to describe it.

812

:

can I phrase it in another way so

that I can say, I'm not unhappy,

813

:

I'm just experiencing this or that.

814

:

It's like, well, that's what, being

unhappy, like experiencing things the

815

:

way that that is, is unhappy is what

I call, I'm not happy, I'm unhappy.

816

:

Right.

817

:

Not happy, unhappy.

818

:

Yeah.

819

:

See, see, for me.

820

:

Not happy is much closer

to unhappy than for you.

821

:

Not happy doesn't mean anything,

822

:

Ryan: so,

823

:

so I guess that's kind of

what I'm trying to get at.

824

:

it feels, it sounds strange.

825

:

It doesn't feel strange.

826

:

Mm-hmm.

827

:

It feels very in line with my intuited

experience, but it sounds strange to

828

:

say I don't really experience happiness.

829

:

I don't want to experience happiness.

830

:

Mm-hmm.

831

:

And I don't really experience unhappiness.

832

:

I think most people would call BS on that.

833

:

And rightfully so in the

conventional understanding.

834

:

Peter: Mm-hmm.

835

:

Ryan: But that's the way I feel.

836

:

And, and, and I guess I'm trying to

figure out, and I don't know why none

837

:

of this really matters, but it's,

it's intriguing to me because I've

838

:

recognized this persistent resistance

to the term happiness and unhappiness.

839

:

Happiness.

840

:

Happiness in general, sort of

as a misnomer, although I'm

841

:

coming around to the, existence

of a type of this experience.

842

:

But am I just naming it different or

is it really qualitatively different?

843

:

it sounds like, and obviously we're just

one interaction and one experience, but.

844

:

From what I've observed of other

people around me, I feel like I don't

845

:

really experience much unhappiness

and I don't experience very much

846

:

happiness, and I'm okay with that.

847

:

Peter: I think so if you wanna talk

to other people, so you wanna talk to

848

:

people other than me who seem to have

a clue as to what you're talking about,

849

:

I would hook into the POK community

because I think this is very familiar.

850

:

In fact, you know, in part of the

exercise that I do, there's a step that

851

:

says, see if you can access gratitude.

852

:

and if you're in a place where you

just don't sense emotions, then.

853

:

there's a very clear acknowledgement

of, you may not have clear access

854

:

to the emotion of gratitude.

855

:

and that there, I've been with people

who are actually reporting that out.

856

:

Mm-hmm.

857

:

Right.

858

:

and that, you know, well,

I'm appreciating this.

859

:

There's not really a sense of gratitude

and the instruction is like, well,

860

:

you know, see if you can have some

enjoyment of what you're experiencing.

861

:

And enjoyment can lead to gratitude.

862

:

Or appreciation.

863

:

And appreciation Can, you know, and, and,

and then people are saying, you know.

864

:

I have some appreciation.

865

:

Gratitude isn't quite there, you

know, and, there are these subtleties

866

:

of experience in relationship

to emotions that are part of the

867

:

vernacular of this community.

868

:

Sure.

869

:

and so, you know, what you're

talking about doesn't sound

870

:

weird or unfamiliar to me.

871

:

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

872

:

Peter: It's just not my experience.

873

:

But I am in contact with other people

whose experience is different from

874

:

mine and probably different from

mine in a way that's closer to yours.

875

:

Ryan: Mm.

876

:

I've expressed previously

that I don't feel any,

877

:

I don't feel like I'm weird, right?

878

:

Like, I don't have any sense that what I

experience is different or alternative.

879

:

But when I hear other

people's experience, right.

880

:

Exactly.

881

:

It just doesn't match.

882

:

It doesn't match.

883

:

Right, right.

884

:

Peter: Even hearing you say it

doesn't, you don't feel weird.

885

:

Sounds weird to me.

886

:

It's like, who doesn't feel weird?

887

:

Uh, so interesting.

888

:

That reminds me of, so I'm thinking of,

I'm thinking of our, my groups, right?

889

:

Mm-hmm.

890

:

the non POK groups.

891

:

Mm-hmm.

892

:

Where, a very common exercise is,

kind of who else feels this way?

893

:

Right.

894

:

You know, and the call for hands and

like, and so there's normalization of,

895

:

you know, what someone's going through.

896

:

And it's very, very common.

897

:

I mean, it's almost without exception,

golly, I think it is without exception.

898

:

I don't think I've ever seen someone

deal with someone something and, and

899

:

have, have a leader say, you know, who

else, you know, who's familiar with this?

900

:

And nobody's hand goes up.

901

:

Right, right.

902

:

Um, well that would dangerous situation.

903

:

Like

904

:

backfire.

905

:

well, I don't think it's really

possible except, again, I

906

:

think in, in general, okay.

907

:

So I would call the group, I'm

referring to a healing circle Mm-hmm.

908

:

these are people who are aware

of and confronting things that

909

:

they perceive as difficult.

910

:

Yeah.

911

:

And that's most people.

912

:

Yeah.

913

:

But I don't think it's everyone.

914

:

Sure.

915

:

And I think, again, if you, if you did

the hand raise in a POK session you would.

916

:

Absolutely.

917

:

And, and, and probably even historically.

918

:

Yep.

919

:

like, so how, how many people

have never had this experience?

920

:

Yeah.

921

:

or not familiar with this

experience, or it sounds odd to them.

922

:

I'm absolutely sure that

you would get hand raises.

923

:

Ryan: Sure.

924

:

Yeah.

925

:

I mean, I don't think my

experience is isolated Right.

926

:

By any means, but

927

:

Peter: it's unusual.

928

:

I think it's been really interesting

to have a conversation about

929

:

subjective experience of happiness.

930

:

Mm-hmm.

931

:

and I'm really curious to hear any

kind of response to this conversation

932

:

because you know, it's like,

well to the hand raise exercise.

933

:

right.

934

:

Well, is anyone familiar with

what the hell I'm talking about?

935

:

Yeah.

936

:

Right.

937

:

Is anyone familiar with

what Ryan's talking about?

938

:

Or is everyone somewhere between?

939

:

Right.

940

:

Yeah.

941

:

and I think it's, I think it's interesting

that this fascinating video was a

942

:

springboard for this conversation, which

has very little to do with the video,

943

:

but I'm still, I still want to come back

to the end of the video and the metaphor

944

:

that, that we talked about, that she, that

she introduces, because I think it has

945

:

to do with what she said at the beginning

946

:

Where she's saying, I tried all

these things and I'm still not happy.

947

:

And at the end of the video, the

interviewer says, what's our takeaway?

948

:

And she's like, here's the takeaway.

949

:

And it has nothing to do with

what she was talking about.

950

:

but I think it has everything

to do with what she said at the

951

:

beginning about I wasn't being happy.

952

:

And at the end she's saying.

953

:

She's

954

:

Speaker 4: happy.

955

:

Peter: She's

956

:

Speaker 4: happy.

957

:

Yeah.

958

:

Peter: and it's really about what's

remarkable, I think, is it's about how to

959

:

be happy working at something important.

960

:

Because that's what she's talking about.

961

:

She's like, I didn't abandon

my career in science.

962

:

I am still engaged in serious scientific

research and I'm also pursuing this

963

:

other, this, I don't know what I

mean, what, you know, we might call

964

:

woo kind of stuff, but she's like,

I'm doing it in a scientific way.

965

:

and she talks about how yeah, how she's

continuing but in a different way.

966

:

Which is, I mean, I guess it's

the story of most of the other

967

:

scientists who have awakening and

they don't stop being scientists.

968

:

That's the whole point.

969

:

That's the point.

970

:

Right?

971

:

They don't stop being scientists.

972

:

But there are so many people

who find happiness and stop

973

:

doing what they were doing.

974

:

Ryan: So that was not really a digression,

I guess, because I do think that, as

975

:

you mentioned, the subtext of this

episode seemed to be a theme around.

976

:

Happiness.

977

:

And I had some questions about that and I

appreciate the indulge in that discussion.

978

:

But to get back to the episode, she

talked about this experience she had in

979

:

meditation and the, the transition of

integration of the two worldviews post

980

:

this say awakening experience or this

meditative experience she had where she

981

:

would have oscillations of doubt and

skepticism that would, materialize from

982

:

this historical materialist perspective.

983

:

So she was saying how she would

interact with her colleagues and start

984

:

to question whether she could actually

trust her subjective experience that was.

985

:

Real in the experience, but

then , this intellectual materialist

986

:

view starts to overcome and make

you question and be a skeptic.

987

:

So she went through this period after

of sort of this back and forth as she

988

:

started to integrate these perspectives.

989

:

And then described how eventually the

intellect finds a way to catch up and

990

:

integrate the two perspectives over time.

991

:

And she spoke specifically of scientists,

that when scientists experience this

992

:

awakening,, they gain this interiority and

inclination to continue to explore how.

993

:

That experience relates

to the material world.

994

:

And this is something that we've discussed

a number of times and I've raised

995

:

specifically as, a theme that the most

prominent people in this space, although I

996

:

did find it interesting that she mentioned

ca what's the philosopher's name?

997

:

The guy who card card up.

998

:

I wanna call him ketchup,

but it's not Kastrup Kastrup.

999

:

Bernardo Kastrup.

:

00:46:31,452 --> 00:46:36,352

Bernardo Kastrup, who we talked about

and was involved in the last interview,

:

00:46:36,402 --> 00:46:39,582

with Faggin, and Penrose Penrose.

:

00:46:39,682 --> 00:46:45,462

He is one of the few that we've

experienced academics in this space

:

00:46:45,462 --> 00:46:48,852

that have not specifically experienced.

:

00:46:48,952 --> 00:46:52,532

This metaphysical, awakening type thing.

:

00:46:52,532 --> 00:46:56,492

And he basically says he's just

following the evidence and analysis.

:

00:46:56,492 --> 00:46:57,272

Analysis.

:

00:46:57,302 --> 00:46:57,452

Yeah.

:

00:46:57,457 --> 00:46:57,527

Yeah.

:

00:46:57,752 --> 00:47:02,572

So the point being there is this

theme that those most prominent in

:

00:47:02,602 --> 00:47:07,792

the space, and I think independent

of their own, like they seem to be

:

00:47:07,792 --> 00:47:11,862

very, well regarded scientists in

their space before this happens.

:

00:47:11,862 --> 00:47:14,502

It's not like they're kooks

or like fringe science.

:

00:47:14,502 --> 00:47:14,907

So, so you're

:

00:47:14,907 --> 00:47:20,047

Peter: saying the most prominent

in the idealism, right.

:

00:47:20,047 --> 00:47:21,697

Science space.

:

00:47:21,697 --> 00:47:21,937

Yes.

:

00:47:21,937 --> 00:47:22,387

Yes.

:

00:47:22,487 --> 00:47:25,697

Ryan: All seem to have this,

have had an experience that

:

00:47:25,697 --> 00:47:27,917

then drove them To, I guess.

:

00:47:28,017 --> 00:47:32,817

What we're about to talk about, which

is it expands their perception to be

:

00:47:32,817 --> 00:47:39,947

able to encompass the potential of

this consciousness first paradigm.

:

00:47:40,227 --> 00:47:43,417

I found that interesting that

this continues to be a theme.

:

00:47:43,494 --> 00:47:48,974

so anyway, So she, went through

some of the work that she did.

:

00:47:49,074 --> 00:47:55,394

In this integration and talking about

how the historical spiritual texts,

:

00:47:55,494 --> 00:48:00,230

much of the knowledge was gained

through Revelation and we're finding

:

00:48:00,230 --> 00:48:06,300

the more we move science into this

space, that there's alignment of

:

00:48:06,570 --> 00:48:08,100

what we're learning intellectually.

:

00:48:08,767 --> 00:48:12,107

Versus the historical revelation.

:

00:48:12,207 --> 00:48:13,947

Peter: Yes.

:

00:48:14,047 --> 00:48:18,397

But I mean, it seems like there's

a kind of revelation there as well.

:

00:48:18,397 --> 00:48:21,917

I mean, 'cause what revelation is,

is awakening experience, right?

:

00:48:22,127 --> 00:48:24,947

And so we're talking about scientists

who were going through awakened

:

00:48:24,947 --> 00:48:26,507

experience and then pursuing this,

:

00:48:26,662 --> 00:48:27,882

Ryan: but they're saying that the

:

00:48:27,882 --> 00:48:32,735

scientific evidence that we're

coming to in more recent years

:

00:48:32,735 --> 00:48:33,305

Peter: is supporting,

:

00:48:33,310 --> 00:48:34,415

Ryan: is supporting that, right?

:

00:48:34,415 --> 00:48:35,015

Exactly.

:

00:48:35,015 --> 00:48:35,465

Yes.

:

00:48:35,525 --> 00:48:40,582

and so then she went on to describe a

metaphor for awareness and perception,

:

00:48:40,582 --> 00:48:47,322

discussing the conflict of the materialist

position and the idealists position

:

00:48:47,372 --> 00:48:52,572

Peter: so I think I, so I think the

question from the interviewer was

:

00:48:52,622 --> 00:48:59,329

how do you reconcile your experience

with your training and profession?

:

00:48:59,429 --> 00:49:06,029

And her explanation was , the optical

illusion of the, the vase and two faces

:

00:49:06,059 --> 00:49:06,149

Ryan: mm-hmm.

:

00:49:06,249 --> 00:49:10,049

Peter: Or what I call the figure,

field, perception, like how the

:

00:49:10,049 --> 00:49:12,539

figure appears on the field mm-hmm.

:

00:49:12,839 --> 00:49:14,759

Of a, of an illustration.

:

00:49:14,859 --> 00:49:17,999

so in her example, there's a black vase.

:

00:49:18,069 --> 00:49:20,609

On a white, square, square field.

:

00:49:20,709 --> 00:49:26,229

And when you look at the black object,

you just see this black vase But if

:

00:49:26,229 --> 00:49:30,279

you look at the white space or the

negative space and you see these two

:

00:49:30,279 --> 00:49:35,589

faces facing each other, then you don't

see that it's a picture of a vase.

:

00:49:35,589 --> 00:49:39,159

You see it's a picture of two faces,

and then your perception starts to

:

00:49:39,159 --> 00:49:42,949

shift back and forth between seeing

the vase and seeing the faces.

:

00:49:43,049 --> 00:49:48,199

Ryan: So she was saying how, this was a

description of the conflict or paradox

:

00:49:48,199 --> 00:49:53,199

between the materialist versus idealist,

but that , the initial metaphor seemed

:

00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:58,129

like she might focus on, you need to pay

attention or focus on the white space.

:

00:49:58,129 --> 00:50:02,569

But what she really was advocating for

was this expansion of perception to

:

00:50:02,599 --> 00:50:08,389

expand our awareness and perception to

include , the potential of both spaces.

:

00:50:08,389 --> 00:50:12,189

And that by expanding the curiosity.

:

00:50:12,189 --> 00:50:17,789

She spoke specifically , about

how her curiosity post materialism

:

00:50:17,889 --> 00:50:20,769

led her to find this evidence

:

00:50:20,849 --> 00:50:25,049

and it was a curiosity she said was

absent when she was in the materialist

:

00:50:25,054 --> 00:50:25,124

Peter: mm-hmm.

:

00:50:25,319 --> 00:50:25,979

Ryan: Paradigm.

:

00:50:26,059 --> 00:50:32,279

And that metaphor was illustrating

how , science has focused on, we'll

:

00:50:32,279 --> 00:50:34,289

say the black vase in the metaphor.

:

00:50:34,289 --> 00:50:39,419

And so all it knows and can

conceive of is anything that

:

00:50:39,419 --> 00:50:41,339

exists within that black vase.

:

00:50:41,529 --> 00:50:48,189

And her comment was to expand our

curiosity and our perception to

:

00:50:48,189 --> 00:50:51,899

allow for this alternate outcome.

:

00:50:51,999 --> 00:50:55,059

I mean, it's pointing exactly to what

we've been talking about previously where

:

00:50:55,239 --> 00:51:01,809

the institution of science and materialist

scientists are so dogmatic about things

:

00:51:01,809 --> 00:51:08,219

having to land within that space that

it prevents them from even conceiving

:

00:51:08,219 --> 00:51:13,169

of or being open to the potential of,

say, a consciousness first paradigm.

:

00:51:13,269 --> 00:51:18,449

and so she did use this,

metaphor, but then discussed how

:

00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:24,069

Expanded awareness and perception

and openness and curiosity led her

:

00:51:24,249 --> 00:51:30,389

to pursue the work that she was doing

before In a realm that supported

:

00:51:30,489 --> 00:51:34,369

what she seemed to understand as

this consciousness first paradigm.

:

00:51:34,469 --> 00:51:37,979

Peter: More curiosity about

the nature of consciousness.

:

00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:42,389

she cites a lot of NDE

studies, near death experience.

:

00:51:42,489 --> 00:51:49,469

and yes, , ' cause her prior work

academically was in, mobility and balance.

:

00:51:49,549 --> 00:51:50,839

and this is quite a shift.

:

00:51:50,839 --> 00:51:52,909

This has nothing to do with locomotion.

:

00:51:52,909 --> 00:51:58,209

This has to do with what Nature

of nature of consciousness.

:

00:51:58,259 --> 00:52:02,379

well, I actually, I guess I don't really

know what her current research is.

:

00:52:02,379 --> 00:52:06,849

She does present a few

specific case studies.

:

00:52:06,849 --> 00:52:07,299

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

:

00:52:07,399 --> 00:52:09,249

Peter: And she says that she did a paper.

:

00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:15,979

With, a doctor who experienced a near

death experience so that it would be in

:

00:52:15,979 --> 00:52:22,659

the PubMed, Medline, whatever database so

that when physicians, are curious about

:

00:52:22,659 --> 00:52:30,359

it, they find an actual published paper by

a neurobiologist working with a physician.

:

00:52:30,409 --> 00:52:32,249

she's seeding the field.

:

00:52:32,249 --> 00:52:34,259

She's seeding the mainstream literature.

:

00:52:34,379 --> 00:52:39,439

with this, rigorously reported,

metaphysical Experience.

:

00:52:39,489 --> 00:52:39,639

Ryan: yeah.

:

00:52:39,739 --> 00:52:45,359

She did talk about that work, and

I think we will bypass some of that

:

00:52:45,359 --> 00:52:49,869

because we want to tie this episode off

with the revelation around happiness

:

00:52:49,919 --> 00:52:55,349

Peter: I was inspired by your

question initially about happiness

:

00:52:55,449 --> 00:53:05,635

and then her, use of this vase

illusion metaphor for her perception.

:

00:53:06,359 --> 00:53:09,479

to me, the metaphor is pointing

at stuff that she's not saying.

:

00:53:09,509 --> 00:53:10,649

that's what I was taking away.

:

00:53:10,749 --> 00:53:15,169

at the beginning she was explicitly

saying, this is how not to be happy.

:

00:53:15,169 --> 00:53:15,589

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

:

00:53:15,989 --> 00:53:16,954

Peter: Be successful.

:

00:53:17,254 --> 00:53:19,664

I was a terrific graduate student.

:

00:53:19,814 --> 00:53:21,614

I became a professor.

:

00:53:21,614 --> 00:53:26,264

I published, I was very successful in

my field, and it did not make me happy.

:

00:53:26,364 --> 00:53:29,364

So being successful is

not how to be happy.

:

00:53:29,464 --> 00:53:35,147

And then what she says at the

end is, here's an illustration of

:

00:53:35,147 --> 00:53:36,617

kind of reconciling these views.

:

00:53:37,194 --> 00:53:38,034

And she's happy.

:

00:53:38,089 --> 00:53:40,369

And so that's where I was making the jump.

:

00:53:41,019 --> 00:53:43,059

Oh, she's telling us how to be happy here.

:

00:53:43,159 --> 00:53:48,829

And I'm tying that to my interpretation

of happiness per or earlier

:

00:53:48,889 --> 00:53:54,729

conversation, which is, the conventional

perspective is, let's call this

:

00:53:54,729 --> 00:53:58,859

painting, let's call this a painting

of a black vase on a white canvas.

:

00:53:58,959 --> 00:54:03,219

So there's black paint and there's

white paint on this canvas.

:

00:54:03,319 --> 00:54:07,169

And the conventional view is

to look at this canvas and

:

00:54:07,169 --> 00:54:09,679

say, I see this black figure.

:

00:54:09,919 --> 00:54:11,089

That's what exists.

:

00:54:11,189 --> 00:54:14,559

And essentially saying if

it's black paint, it exists.

:

00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:16,359

And if it's white paint, it doesn't exist.

:

00:54:16,459 --> 00:54:20,309

There's another perspective, which

we've talked about many times, which

:

00:54:20,309 --> 00:54:27,109

is a kind of non-dualism, which is

all about emptiness and neglecting

:

00:54:27,209 --> 00:54:29,889

the heart aspect of awakening.

:

00:54:29,989 --> 00:54:34,849

And that perspective is, analogous

to saying, oh, you're wrong.

:

00:54:34,949 --> 00:54:37,179

The black is an illusion.

:

00:54:37,279 --> 00:54:40,179

The white exists and

only the white is real.

:

00:54:40,279 --> 00:54:41,539

which is also false.

:

00:54:41,569 --> 00:54:41,689

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

:

00:54:41,789 --> 00:54:43,019

Peter: Um, in the metaphor.

:

00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:48,379

And I think in reality because

although the material world.

:

00:54:48,479 --> 00:54:53,219

Is in a sense, an illusion

created by consciousness.

:

00:54:53,319 --> 00:54:59,699

It has a reality in our experience,

and therefore, to deny it is to

:

00:54:59,699 --> 00:55:04,389

deny this black figure, which

exists in our field of view.

:

00:55:04,689 --> 00:55:10,709

It exists in our experience, and

it's not appropriate to deny that the

:

00:55:10,709 --> 00:55:15,769

experience exists or deny that the

experience is important merely because

:

00:55:15,869 --> 00:55:18,299

it is not in pure consciousness.

:

00:55:18,419 --> 00:55:18,629

Ryan: Right

:

00:55:18,729 --> 00:55:24,009

Peter: and that what she's pointing to

and what I was describing as my experience

:

00:55:24,009 --> 00:55:29,599

of happiness, was the integration

of the two, That you can clearly see

:

00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:35,169

the white space and you can clearly

see the black space and you're not.

:

00:55:35,269 --> 00:55:37,309

promoting one over the other.

:

00:55:37,489 --> 00:55:41,409

You're not saying one is real

and the other is unreal, or one

:

00:55:41,409 --> 00:55:43,699

is true and the other is false.

:

00:55:43,939 --> 00:55:49,709

by embracing the reality of both, and

you could say the absolute reality

:

00:55:49,889 --> 00:55:55,389

of consciousness and the experiential

reality or apparent reality or subjective

:

00:55:55,389 --> 00:56:02,579

reality, by both of them, then you

actually experience the happiness that,

:

00:56:02,679 --> 00:56:05,389

if you focus only on the material, you

:

00:56:05,439 --> 00:56:10,189

potentially experience a shallow,

unsatisfactory, un lasting happiness.

:

00:56:10,289 --> 00:56:15,779

And if you focus only on the

emptiness, you experience peace,

:

00:56:15,879 --> 00:56:17,499

but you don't experience happiness.

:

00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:23,929

so that's what it was saying to me

and the way I received it was, oh,

:

00:56:23,929 --> 00:56:25,549

she's giving us a coded message here.

:

00:56:25,609 --> 00:56:25,699

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

:

00:56:25,799 --> 00:56:29,219

Peter: You know, she's like, I'm not

gonna explicitly tell you how to be happy,

:

00:56:29,319 --> 00:56:32,549

but this is how I achieved happiness.

:

00:56:32,579 --> 00:56:37,309

'cause I think she's fairly

clear that she was unhappy before

:

00:56:37,309 --> 00:56:39,109

and she is no longer unhappy

:

00:56:39,409 --> 00:56:39,589

Ryan: right

:

00:56:39,589 --> 00:56:40,819

Peter: now to your point.

:

00:56:40,819 --> 00:56:42,049

Oh, does that mean that she's happy?

:

00:56:43,759 --> 00:56:47,389

But I think it's implicit that

she is happy where she is.

:

00:56:47,489 --> 00:56:53,159

and so, and, and I think that she's

further pointing to the field of study

:

00:56:53,159 --> 00:56:59,789

and to the experience of, awakening

scientists who are breaking open this,

:

00:56:59,789 --> 00:57:03,829

this, field of i the idealists, paradigm.

:

00:57:03,979 --> 00:57:04,129

Right.

:

00:57:04,229 --> 00:57:09,489

That this is leading

humanity into happiness

:

00:57:09,529 --> 00:57:09,679

Ryan: Yeah.

:

00:57:09,942 --> 00:57:18,142

, part of her unhappiness was this

extrinsic view of her personal value as

:

00:57:18,202 --> 00:57:18,292

Peter: mm-hmm.

:

00:57:18,392 --> 00:57:24,102

Ryan: Being productive and participatory

in the machine, so to speak.

:

00:57:24,192 --> 00:57:29,132

And that the shift in her

attitude to understanding.

:

00:57:29,232 --> 00:57:32,202

Her intrinsic value, our intrinsic value

:

00:57:32,202 --> 00:57:32,292

Peter: mm-hmm.

:

00:57:32,352 --> 00:57:34,132

Ryan: was a turning point in this.

:

00:57:34,232 --> 00:57:38,492

And she, pointed to some research that

:

00:57:38,592 --> 00:57:44,252

, When people shift out of the

materialistic paradigm, the shift

:

00:57:44,522 --> 00:57:47,452

in, their relation to , other beings.

:

00:57:47,572 --> 00:57:47,662

Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:47,762 --> 00:57:48,932

Animal plant.

:

00:57:48,992 --> 00:57:49,082

Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:49,352 --> 00:57:50,102

The earth.

:

00:57:50,402 --> 00:57:57,162

Each other changes to a more altruistic

and, Say a loving community and

:

00:57:57,192 --> 00:58:02,752

she points to the necessity of

moving away from materialism and

:

00:58:02,752 --> 00:58:06,962

being open to this consciousness

first paradigm for this reason.

:

00:58:07,022 --> 00:58:07,322

Right.

:

00:58:07,372 --> 00:58:07,792

Peter: Yes.

:

00:58:07,792 --> 00:58:13,762

But I think what's interesting to me

is the moving away from materialism

:

00:58:13,862 --> 00:58:16,212

is not a moving into a cave.

:

00:58:16,312 --> 00:58:16,942

Ryan: Correct.

:

00:58:17,032 --> 00:58:17,272

Peter: Right.

:

00:58:17,272 --> 00:58:18,502

It's not a withdrawal.

:

00:58:18,562 --> 00:58:18,922

Ryan: Yes.

:

00:58:19,022 --> 00:58:24,482

Peter: It's a moving away from the,

tunnel of vision on material world.

:

00:58:24,582 --> 00:58:31,332

Because what strikes me is that the

whole story of these awakening scientists

:

00:58:31,432 --> 00:58:37,247

is that they pursue their work, They

don't abandon their work because they

:

00:58:37,247 --> 00:58:39,947

realize that, space time is empty.

:

00:58:39,997 --> 00:58:46,457

I think they find themselves with

the tools to continue to pursue the

:

00:58:46,457 --> 00:58:53,577

understanding of reality, with this

expanded perspective and this, this

:

00:58:53,677 --> 00:58:56,597

un blinkered, unblinded, perspective.

:

00:58:56,602 --> 00:58:56,752

Ryan: Yeah.

:

00:58:56,897 --> 00:59:02,857

Peter: And now they're expanding

their work, and trying to get

:

00:59:02,917 --> 00:59:04,807

the establishment to expand.

:

00:59:05,317 --> 00:59:08,777

Into, this new space

and this new paradigm.

:

00:59:08,877 --> 00:59:13,577

Ryan: Yeah, I mean,, what she was

saying was, when their mind was

:

00:59:13,637 --> 00:59:19,206

opened, the evidence was evident

Like the evidence is there, but

:

00:59:19,206 --> 00:59:24,683

were blinded and when we unveil,

we're seeing what was always there.

:

00:59:24,733 --> 00:59:29,093

And I think that's what these

scientists are finding is, yes, they

:

00:59:29,093 --> 00:59:34,393

pursue because this is what they

do and they're using the tools and

:

00:59:34,393 --> 00:59:36,213

the abilities that they've built.

:

00:59:36,313 --> 00:59:40,003

But they're finding the evidence,

like the evidence is there.

:

00:59:40,053 --> 00:59:41,593

Peter: and that's to your point.

:

00:59:41,593 --> 00:59:47,843

That's exactly what, so what her

current work is, is publishing these

:

00:59:47,843 --> 00:59:50,153

phenomenon which are observable,

:

00:59:50,213 --> 00:59:50,453

Ryan: right.

:

00:59:50,553 --> 00:59:56,423

Peter: and researchable, but

have previously been outside of

:

00:59:56,423 --> 00:59:59,843

the realm of accepted science.

:

00:59:59,843 --> 00:59:59,933

Ryan: Right.

:

00:59:59,983 --> 01:00:04,243

Peter: and she's bringing her

credibility as a neurobiologist

:

01:00:04,936 --> 01:00:07,436

to, near death experience.

:

01:00:07,466 --> 01:00:07,526

Ryan: Yeah.

:

01:00:07,626 --> 01:00:09,006

Peter: There's some remarkable examples.

:

01:00:09,006 --> 01:00:12,386

There's a couple of very remarkable

examples, in the video, which we

:

01:00:12,386 --> 01:00:14,076

haven't touched on, but please,

:

01:00:14,176 --> 01:00:14,416

Ryan: yes,

:

01:00:14,446 --> 01:00:17,506

Peter: go and check them out

'cause it's quite remarkable.

:

01:00:17,556 --> 01:00:24,536

Ryan: Ultimately the understanding of

true nature and the intrinsic value within

:

01:00:24,536 --> 01:00:31,126

existence leads to doing what fulfills,

but having fun with it as opposed to

:

01:00:31,156 --> 01:00:35,216

this compulsion for productivity and

:

01:00:35,316 --> 01:00:36,666

she spoke about.

:

01:00:36,766 --> 01:00:39,646

Unfolding reality with others.

:

01:00:39,746 --> 01:00:44,976

So that when consciousness, and we didn't

go into the mechanism, she was discussing

:

01:00:45,036 --> 01:00:50,356

earlier in the video about separating

consciousness and the perception of

:

01:00:50,356 --> 01:00:55,951

separation within individuated bodies,

but there was some discussion about that.

:

01:00:55,981 --> 01:00:58,731

But the point was, that

consciousness is ever expanding,

:

01:00:58,731 --> 01:01:00,751

and that reminded me of the.

:

01:01:00,801 --> 01:01:06,411

fundamental process and this

continuing evolvement into stronger

:

01:01:06,411 --> 01:01:12,001

and deeper complexity that sort of

resonated as, akin to that concept.

:

01:01:12,101 --> 01:01:16,321

But that, our interaction

with the material world is

:

01:01:16,421 --> 01:01:18,281

part of that creative process.

:

01:01:18,331 --> 01:01:23,831

, And what we're doing here is

unfolding and expanding consciousness,

:

01:01:23,831 --> 01:01:26,081

unfolding reality with others.

:

01:01:26,081 --> 01:01:30,848

And she likened that sort of to

a game, pointing to meaning and

:

01:01:30,848 --> 01:01:35,958

fulfillment and happiness comes

from the joyful exploration of

:

01:01:35,958 --> 01:01:37,518

this expanding consciousness.

:

01:01:37,548 --> 01:01:37,578

Peter: Mm.

:

01:01:38,045 --> 01:01:42,445

Ryan: Not the compulsion to be

recognized and be the best and

:

01:01:42,445 --> 01:01:43,230

Peter: material success,

:

01:01:43,510 --> 01:01:44,900

Ryan: material success and such.

:

01:01:45,443 --> 01:01:45,803

Okay.

:

01:01:45,903 --> 01:01:46,353

Well.

:

01:01:46,453 --> 01:01:49,253

Thank you for the happiness

and the happiness discussion.

:

01:01:49,253 --> 01:01:50,883

This was an interesting video.

:

01:01:50,883 --> 01:01:53,763

I enjoyed it very much and I

recommend that you all, go and

:

01:01:53,763 --> 01:01:56,793

listen to it, especially for

the pieces that we didn't cover.

:

01:01:56,843 --> 01:02:00,703

because as Peter mentioned, there's

some quite compelling evidence.

:

01:02:00,703 --> 01:02:05,283

And it ties in a lot of what we've been

talking about over the past few episodes.

:

01:02:05,333 --> 01:02:09,193

so we recommend it and I recommend

that you, follow Essentia Foundation.

:

01:02:09,193 --> 01:02:13,293

We've, leveraged a few of their videos

here recently and we appreciate their

:

01:02:13,293 --> 01:02:14,913

work, so go support them as well.

:

01:02:14,913 --> 01:02:18,563

So drop us a comment, and we'll

talk to you guys next time.

:

01:02:18,663 --> 01:02:18,933

Bye

:

01:02:19,113 --> 01:02:19,503

Peter: bye now.

:

01:02:21,593 --> 01:02:24,203

Thank you for listening to

the Tracking Wisdom podcast.

:

01:02:24,323 --> 01:02:26,573

Join us next time as we

continue the discussion.

:

01:02:27,113 --> 01:02:30,263

Don't forget to follow us on

Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube,

:

01:02:30,623 --> 01:02:31,443

and visit www.eth-studio.com

:

01:02:34,973 --> 01:02:36,803

for more information and content.

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