Insights and Reflections: Challenges in Engaging with Tony Robbins' Techniques

Peter: 00:00:05

Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution. They are for informational and entertainment purposes only. Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

Ryan: 00:00:23

Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast. I'm Ryan.

Peter: 00:00:27

And I'm Peter.

Ryan: 00:00:28

And today we're doing a bit of an impromptu follow follow up from our last episode, which was on Tony Robbins priming Exercise. This is part of our miniseries that we're doing on my takeaways from the Time to Rise Summit.

You can listen to the first episode of that if you want more information on the Time to Rise. But last episode we talked about priming, and today we wanted to kind of follow up and give some insight on our experiences.

Peter has gone through one and a half or so, and I have still only done the one exercise. So I think we want to kind of touch base and report on our experiences and challenges with it and kind of go from there. So go ahead.

Peter: 00:01:22

Yeah. So just to follow up on a couple of things I said last time I had mentioned that I recognize this yogi yogic style of breathing, right. That he.

That he was doing a breath of fire. And when I showed it to my wife, she was like, oh, that. Yeah, we used to do that in yoga.

So it is that I said, oh, and did you do the hand motions too? And she's like, yeah.

Ryan: 00:01:45

Oh, interesting.

Peter: 00:01:45

Yeah. Okay. So.

Ryan: 00:01:46

So it's a thing.

Peter: 00:01:47

It's a thing. So my. My first comment or. Or thought, which I had thought about last time and then I forgot to mention it, was that.

That I noticed in the video that in the audience, some people are basically. I mean, obviously some people just aren't going to participate.

But what I think I actually saw and what I was aware of, just in general, is that some people aren't able to do it the way that he does it. And especially if you don't have upper body mobility, you might not be able to reach over your head the way he does.

And the reason it stands out to me is because I just finished a teaching program and part of their emphasis was on making teachings accessible to people and that this might not work for you as an individual. And so we offer an alternative. And as we had said last time, of course, Tony's really designing this to the bell curve, right?

Maximum impulse impact for the majority of the population, which increases his impact a lot, which is great. But it also means that, you know, if you're in the tails of the bell curve, you Might feel a little bit put off.

You know, you might not be able to keep up. You might. So. And I think. I don't know if I said this last time.

I just made the comment, like, I'm sure if you get a private session with him, right, Then it's custom tailored to, you know. Well, Tony, I prompted. Oh, this is, you know, there's a fix for that. So just. I just noticed that.

And then in particular, I did notice kind of the rhythm because he's doing an intense rhythm. And I. I notice in the audience in the video, there are absolutely people who are trying to keep up but can't, you know.

So I did do one session last Friday of the full. I sat in front of the video and did it as he did it, and definitely, you know, was impressed. Like, this is a really good exercise.

This is a really good practice. I have to say that three. Three rounds of 30 breaths is pretty intense, as you said. Yeah, like, that's pretty intense. Yeah. So if you're not. If you're.

If you're somewhat infirm, you're definitely. You may not be able to keep up. I'm not sure about my terminology. Say you're firm. But if you. If you're not. If you're.

If your physical state doesn't allow you to do that intensive breathing, it. Yeah. You just won't. And so I guess my question is, you know, and I. And I.

I haven't really apologized because I didn't stop and think this through before getting on mic, but, you know, is there something that we could offer as an alternative? And I don't know, like. Because I actually don't know enough about this type of breathing to really know what it's doing.

And so I guess what I would say is I'm sure the exercise is valuable even without that component.

Ryan: 00:04:56

Yeah.

Peter: 00:04:57

So that's. That's. I want to put that out there, though, as opposed to. This is the primary exercise. Oh, I can't do it because I can't do. Because of number one.

You know, and at the same time, for me personally, that was the part that really put me off the boat.

Ryan: 00:05:11

Right.

Peter: 00:05:12

Like, oh, I don't want to do that. Right. So I didn't do the rest of the thing. Right. Like, it took me until Friday to actually get around to doing it because I felt intimidated by the.

By the breathing part. So it's just a thought.

Basically, as we said so many times, don't throw the baby out with, like, if you can't do the first step, just do what you can. Do what you can and get the benefit that you can get out of this. This offering. Oh, offering, which is the, the other. Wow, that was.

I did not mean to segue like that. So I wanted to follow up on a comment I made last time of.

Because I referenced a Tibetan deity practice called the Green Tower practice, also the seven limb practice. And I said that I recognized that the connection between offering and gratitude. And I want to clarify.

So Ryan and I spoke briefly off mic about, you know, what might be our listeners ideas offering. You know, if you've been to a church, you know, and passed the plate and that idea of offering, that's not what I was talking about.

And so in this kind of Tibetan deity practice, which I think is Vajrayana branch of. Anyway, I won't get to that.

But anyway, the offering is a symbolic offering and you may actually set up an altar with seven cups and you may actually put like some fresh fruit in one cup and some flowers in another cup and some. What. There's different ways of doing it.

There's, there's a way where you just, you put water in every single one and the water symbolizes this or as I do it, you might not have an altar at all. You might do the, the whole thing internally.

And so, so again, traditionally there's a physical offering, but even those physical offerings are symbolic. Like you're not taking food from your plate.

Ryan: 00:07:15

Right.

Peter: 00:07:15

You know, and you're not. Basically it's not the idea of sacrifice, which I think might be some people's idea of offering.

Ryan: 00:07:24

Right.

Peter: 00:07:24

I mean, I think the idea of tithing conveys sacrifice. And that's not, I mean, obviously if you're, if you're making an internal spiritual offering, you're not sacrificing anything.

And the instruction that I had was offering, offer up all the best that you have in your life. And that's why I made the connection of like, oh, well, this is the same as being grateful.

It's like I'm offering, you know, I was offering my daily practice. I was offering the love of my family that I get from my family, you know, all these things. And so that's why I want to clarify.

Like when I express it that way, it I think becomes much more obvious that oh, this is a gratitude practice. Now there are seven steps as I referenced seven limbs to this practice. And I'm trying to think if there's an.

Because it's actually I've been away for a while from that. I don't think there's an actual separate gratitude step. There's, there's a forgiveness step and there is a confession.

Oh, what's the word you brought up earlier? Like asking for forgiveness. Re.

Ryan: 00:08:38

Repenting.

Peter: 00:08:38

Repentance. There's a repentance step and there's an asking for assistance step, but I don't think there's a gratitude step separate from the offering.

So just, that was the connection I was making around and that's the kind of, that's what I meant by offering, not, you know, what might be the more common experience for certainly an American audience of going to church and have the offering plate. Did you, did you want to comment? Because we had a little conversation about that.

Ryan: 00:09:10

Yeah, well, I do want to talk about that real quick, but before I do, I wanted to touch back to your original comment about the breathing. And I mean, this is, this is also my observation. This breathing exercise is an obstacle for me to engaging with the practice.

And it's not really a super rational reason I'm perfectly physically able to, to perform it, but it is, I wouldn't say off putting, but there's a friction there, you know, resistance. There's resistance. And I think in part because it's the first thing you do, it makes it hard to step off that ledge. Right.

If, if it was embedded somewhere in between and I could start doing the practice, it probably would not be as resistant. But because it's like, o do this, I don't want to do that. You know, it creates a barrier and you know, you make a good point.

As far as from, I don't want to call it a product, but if you think about this as like a product, from a product standpoint, creating it to align with the largest pool of people makes sense.

And to keep it simple and succinct and articulated into a thing, acknowledging that there's certainly ways you can go about this in alternative means that creates and provides the same kind of value. I don't think this is the only way you can do this.

I think there's an opportunity or it would be nice if Tony maybe vocalized a little bit, especially acknowledging physical, you know, physical body challenges. That might be an obstacle.

Not just like, I don't want to, but, you know, people who physically can't do this or, you know, somebody who has no arms, obviously you can still do this practice in a manner that creates the same outcomes.

And I think primarily the biggest value comes from all the stuff that happens after the breathing, which is stuff that last time you seem to identify as consistent with, with you had identified it as consistent with certain practices that you're familiar with.

And it certainly aligned very much with me with maybe not practices, because I don't engage so much with practices, but the idea behind it was intuitive. And I got like, kind of where we were going with that, and I found or identified this as a valuable thing.

Like, oh, yeah, I could see how going through these steps in this order, but I don't think sequence is super important.

But I think there is an intentional sequence that brings you through from, you know, the gratitude to, you know, recognizing what you want and where you're going, and then, you know, recognizing where you're proud and being able to visualize this journey.

I think there is some intent behind it or intentionality behind it, but at the end of the day, I don't think that the sequence really holds that much value as opposed to actually engaging with these meaningfully. I think you make a good point. And while I was inclined to make an assertion that I understood so you.

You said something along the lines of, you know, I don't know what this kind of. From the yogic perspective, I think I don't know what.

Not the purpose, but I don't know what this is, how this is supposed to work, or what it's supposed to do. But that is the question, right? How do we do what it's supposed to do in a manner that's alternative to help people who may not engage with it?

And, I mean, I think the key to this, the key to starting with it. But this is, again, my assumption.

I'm not familiar with the yogic breathing, which it sounds like it is either a form of or essentially is that exercise. But it is intended to get you physiologically and therefore mentally kind of prepared for this, the subsequent pieces of the exercise.

So, I mean, if there's a way.

I mentioned it last time, of course it still creates a barrier, even though I mentioned last time I'd be more inclined to do a more relaxing breathing to get myself mentally prepared, I still haven't done even that, you know, so I find that interesting that this breathing thing, although on the face of it, is not all that aversive. Bringing myself to do it seems to be a barrier to actualizing the practice.

Peter: 00:13:41

So, yeah, I think, you know, what we're getting down to is asking, well, what's essential about this practice? Right. What's Tony actually doing right for us with this? And so, of course, you know, gratitude is.

It's a pretty essential, universal orientation to have right just to be. It's an Essential part of happiness is being grateful.

I mean, and it's one of those circular things, like, if you are in a good space, it's very easy to feel gratitude. You have gratitude show up spontaneously. And if you're in a challenging place, using gratitude can help you shift.

And likewise, with the visualization of a goal being completed, right. That if you're. Well, I mean, it's. It's terminology. Going back to terminology we've used a lot. Fundamental well being.

If you're in touch with fundamental well being, if you're in your. Your optimal self, you're gonna tend to have a very optimistic orientation towards the future. You're.

If you think about something that needs to be done, you're gonna tend to like, wow, you get to do that, you know, and maybe not literally visualize it completed the way the instruction is for this exercise, but you're going to be oriented that way. And if you're not in a good place, then following Tony's instruction is going to make you tend more towards that heart space.

So my experience was, Friday, I did this. I liked it. I found it helpful for the day. Oh, that's the thing that you and I talked about this, the timing.

Because I think Tony says, do this first thing in the morning. And I think both of us kind of had like, oh, I can't do that first thing in the morning.

And so I didn't do it until, you know, after I was up and showered and fed that, I went to my desk and I'm like, okay, let me do this thing. Because I said I was going to do it. And guess what? It was still good. Right? You don't have to do.

It's not one of those things where you have to follow the instruction to the left better, otherwise you've done it wrong.

Ryan: 00:16:00

Right.

Peter: 00:16:01

You know, it's all good. Even if you do part of it, it's better than not taking care of yourself.

Ryan: 00:16:08

Right.

Peter: 00:16:09

And so. So the first day, I did it a little, you know, after I'd gotten up and everything, and. But I did the whole thing with the video.

The second day, what I said was, I did it in spirit because I didn't do the br. Well, basically, I did not sit down to do it at all. But.

But while I was journaling and having conversation with my wife, I paid attention to recognizing that I was going through all the steps like I was having a period of gratitude. I have a period of planning where I was thinking about what I was going to do in a very positive way.

And I felt Like, I was spiritually connecting with the steps that Tony gives as instruction in this exercise, which was also beneficial. And even in these conversations talking about it, I feel gratitude arising. I feel this positive attention arising.

Like, I'm aware of, you know, oh, I'm going to start teaching soon, and that will be great. So it's kind of. What's the word? I'm kind of reconnecting to the essence of the practice, even though I didn't do the practice today.

Now, I think part of the reason I'm able to do that is, as we know, I've had pretty extensive grounding in different practices, and that's the purpose of doing this every day. Like, if you don't have other practices, this is a really good way to directly connect with some pretty essential orientations, I would call them.

Right. Which are just part of being happy. I mean, I think that's what Tony teaches. I think he teaches happiness. I mean, it's not the way he packages it.

What does he teach? He teaches, like, action and effectiveness and success. Right.

Ryan: 00:18:11

Yeah. And. But there's more to it. There's internal.

I think you're right as far as, like, the way it's packaged is articulated in a different way, but the essence of it is essentially how to be fulfilled and motivated and find the motivation to do the things that you want to do that you feel driven to do, but are finding it hard to actualize.

Peter: 00:18:34

Yeah. And I guess the last thing I want to say is none of this is a criticism of Tony's stuff at all.

No, it's just pointing out where it might not be a fit for you, but you could still benefit from it. And you don't have to benefit from it. Like, you don't have to, you know, oh, you should go out and read Tony's book or anything like that.

He's just another teacher.

Ryan: 00:18:58

Right.

Peter: 00:18:59

It's like, what's important is that you find the teacher and you find the practice and the teaching that you connect with. That's. That's the most important thing.

But we're hoping it's helpful to talk about these different things and point out some of the essential things so that you can start to recognize them as you. As you do explore different. Different teachings. Like, there are certain things. And we keep on talking about perennial wisdom and. Yeah, there.

There are certain things that are kind of, I don't know, markers of truth or something like that.

Ryan: 00:19:32

Yeah.

Peter: 00:19:33

That they're reliable. Yeah, I guess that's what we're saying. Certain things you can trust once you see them.

Ryan: 00:19:39

And I think that was a big part of what made me inclined to bring it to this forum, was I was surprised, pleasantly surprised, and continue to be in awe of, I guess, you know, the depth to which this perennial wisdom is integrated into so much of life. But it's not always so visible. Right. And the. So that was. That was part of what made me bring it here was, you know, you.

You mentioned Tony as another teacher.

And I think this is good to bring to this conversation because not everybody's going to be interested in or inclined to find a more mystical or theological path to this kind of.

I mean, it's wisdom, but it's really the internalization of the concepts that are described through this perennial wisdom and just kind of bringing to light that, number one, if you had the vision of what Tony Robbins is that I had, you know, before, of just this really high energy, go get a motivational speaker type person. They're actually, what I recognized is, is very powerful underlying, timeless wisdom embedded within these teachings.

And to not necessarily just write it off, but also, if you're not inclined so much to find a more theological or mystical or spiritual kind of pathway to this wisdom. Tony's work is a way that you can do that.

Peter: 00:21:18

I mean, I think that's the really interesting thing is that you can receive the same teachings from a quiet, reclusive, introverted teacher or from this bombastic, highly marketed celebrity teacher. And the same teachings.

Ryan: 00:21:37

Right.

Peter: 00:21:38

I think it's interesting that you shared with me earlier what Tony's path was and that his path, you know, kind of started from this place of physical need and, I mean, financial impoverishment. Right. And it's like, I need a way to move forward and make money.

But he had already come into contact with some teachings, and he said, I can make money by teaching this. And so I think he built that. I think obviously that shaped his teaching.

Ryan: 00:22:10

Right.

Peter: 00:22:11

It's like, well, I was able to get. Become successful, so I can teach you how to become successful. Now, how did he become successful?

He became successful by coming to contact with these core teachings. Right, Right. And then after that, it's marketing. I mean, that's just. That was his path. It's a path of marketing. And it's not a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing to make money and be successful so that you can share your success with more people. And I think that's what he does.

Ryan: 00:22:44

Yes.

Peter: 00:22:45

And it's a doorway for people who are oriented that way.

Ryan: 00:22:50

Right.

Peter: 00:22:50

And it might be an obstacle for someone who is put off. Yeah, you know, I mean, definitely my tendency is to be put off by flashiness and money.

And so, yeah, it inhibited my access to that because I know people. I had a friend who poured hundreds and hundreds of dollars into multiple sets of his recording. I'm like, why do you have four sets of his tapes?

It's like, well, you know, it's helpful to hear it. You know, like, they were all different. It's the same message, but he. He changed the way it's. And it's helpful to hear it in different ways.

I'm like, yeah, but like, this is like thousands of dollars. You know, it's like, oh, but he's great. I'm like, okay. You know, but that was off putting to me. But it resonated this.

Ryan: 00:23:40

Right.

Peter: 00:23:40

Other person.

Ryan: 00:23:41

So, you know, which is the point that you were making about finding the teacher and. And the methods that align with you and work for you. And that doesn't mean that the other teachers and methods are wrong. It doesn't.

If somebody doesn't align with this kind of teaching, doesn't mean that this teaching is wrong. It's finding that pointer that resonates with you, and it's not always going to resonate with you or could change.

And that doesn't mean that what you did was a waste or that it was wrong all along and you were duped.

Peter: 00:24:17

Right.

So if you've been with us on our journey, this really turns out to be what tracking wisdom means for us, is we have fun following or sniffing out maybe the wisdom in different packages, in different paths. That's the same wisdom. And we're just following it through all these different areas that we come into contact with and we really enjoy recognizing.

It's like, aha, yes, there it is.

Ryan: 00:24:47

Aha.

Peter: 00:24:48

And, yeah, we hope you. You get something out of that. That journey, but it's fun for us.

Ryan: 00:24:56

I agree. And I think that that's one thing I would like to try and encourage is we had this premise. We're going to revisit it again soon.

It was from our perspective thesis, although I think that thesis was well, well established long before we came to it. But we came to it through an intuitive sense. It wasn't just something that was given. And then we're like, oh, this is what it. What it is.

But that thesis that there was an underlying core teaching, core wisdom embedded. At the time, we were talking more specifically about more spiritual and theological.

But over time, it's now a few years that we've been kind of following this path and finding so many different areas. And I think what you.

The point you made, and I guess it could be interpreted in a weird way, and you kind of were making a face about when you said it. But, you know, marker of truth.

When I see this and I recognize it, it brings some credential and some validity to whatever it is that I'm being exposed to at the moment. And it. Yeah, I guess that's really.

Peter: 00:26:11

Actually, I want to comment on that because before, at an earlier part on this journey, I think I would look at things. I had a tendency to discredit someone if I recognize the teacher teaching as coming from somewhere else.

Ryan: 00:26:31

Huh. Okay.

Peter: 00:26:32

So I think. I think I even had an idea at some point of, well, Jesus said this, but really, Buddha said that. Okay, Right.

Ryan: 00:26:41

Yeah.

Peter: 00:26:42

As if. Right. Oh, well, he's getting it from this other guy.

Ryan: 00:26:46

It's not original.

Peter: 00:26:47

And I think. Exactly. And I. And I think that there is a way of thinking that tends to do that.

And, and so, you know, certainly there will be listeners who know what I'm talking about, and they're like, well, yeah, of course. Like, you know, they're just stealing stuff. And I think what we've learned is, no, this is essential stuff that's embedded in human experience.

And some people express it.

Ryan: 00:27:18

Right.

Peter: 00:27:19

Right. I mean, yes, yes, there are people who are scholars or there are. There are teachers who, you know, call wisdom from different sources.

And yes, that happens.

But it's equally true that because these are essential truths of human experience, that they arise spontaneously in different teachers at different times, and they're not derivative in that sense. And I think in our intellectual society, there's more tendency to question and say, well, didn't they get that from so and so. Right.

Didn't Eckhart Tolle just get that from. It's like, no. And. And so there's. There's. There's a new teacher that we.

We may visit in a little bit, Byron, Katie, who I've known about for some time, but I haven't really studied her at all. And I started to listen to one of her books this morning, and the story of her had, like, how she started is very much this.

You know, she didn't come from this. A background, a particular background of spirituality. It. She. She's one of those spontaneous enlightenment people.

And as soon as you come into contact with her teaching, well, if. If you have the kind of orientation that we do, you come into contact with her teachings and you start immediately recognizing stuff.

And yet, you know, I really don't think like that she went and consumed a bunch of scriptures or whatever, different traditions and said, oh, let me repackage this. It's like, no, this was, this was spontaneous. As, as I understand it, Eckhart Tolle's teachings are as well.

It's just some people get access, direct access to this in a way that allows them to express it originally. And then you can recognize like, oh, that's not original. Because lots of other people. It's like, yes, yes. People keep on saying this stuff. Right.

Ryan: 00:29:24

There's a reason for that. Yeah, yeah.

Peter: 00:29:26

You know, it's like if you have two arms and two legs, it's not because you stole that from someone. It's like, yeah, that's pretty much, you know, that's a common experience. Yeah, that's funny.

Ryan: 00:29:39

That's a good, that's a good analogy. It's true though. I mean, and I think it's comes down to. Even the way I think about it is.

And I guess I don't want to get too far into our conversation that's coming. But even the original of original teachers or revelators didn't create this. This is just recognizing a fundamental of existence.

And that recognition, as you mentioned, can spontaneously happen. And it can also happen by coming in contact with teaching. And I don't think either one is wrong.

And I think that however you can, however you come to and find the underlying essence is okay and is good. And I think it's also beneficial, at least to me.

And maybe it's just me being curious and giddy about it, but when you come to, when one comes to the. To being exposed to this, I guess it goes to the pointer, right, that it's one of many.

And it's interesting to then open your observation and perspective to see this in all its nuance and all its. Its derivatives, you know, all of its manifestations and varieties over time and in different domains. And it's cool. I like it.

Obviously, you know, it. It is something that continues to fulfill me in finding and observing it and recognizing it.

And I think it also helps me to recognize how much more fundamental truth really is still embedded in life, even in, you know, the new tech age and speed of which things happen and, you know, division, you know, the culture that we live in now. Although I don' that it's really all that different. I think I.

I heard something recently about Socrates or something who said something that was like, I can't remember it now, but it basically said the same kind of thing. Like everybody's Doing this and that and whatever, as if it were new and it's still kind of it.

It presents in unique ways or different flavors, but it's kind of that same underlying perception and that there's an even deeper underlying perception and awareness that kind of embodies this truth. And recognizing that even amongst things that may seem disparate or conflicting, I think helps bring some harmony.

You know, you had mentioned the gratitude and the offering and I had mentioned off mic with Peter. We were talking about, you know, the traditional offering for church.

And I mean, we were talking specifically about awkwardness if you're not going to give. And I brought up how that awkwardness, at least in my church, when, when it happened, you know, if it came by, it wasn't.

It felt like an external pressure, like it, like a social pressure, but it really was an internal pressure which was, I'm the one judging myself and asking, I'm not giving. Why am I not giving? And is there really a good reason not to be giving, offering.

And, and I was mentioning, you know, my own personal experience as far as you describe tithing. And I think it's accurate as far as the perception in modern day that as a sacrifice.

And I think that it's unfortunate because I do believe, at least as far as I understand the purpose of tithing is not specifically sacrifice, but faith.

And, and I think the idea of faith also gets misconstrued that the faith, I don't think like it's presented like faith that God will provide, but what I think that is meant to be is releasing scarcity, mindset and, and having faith that your circumstances will allow you to share this.

And in the New Testament specifically, it's talked about the joyous giver and prioritizing, like giving out of guilt or feeling obligated out of obligation is not really giving. It's not truly embracing and embodying the intent and isn't getting the value. Right.

So I just wanted to touch on that in case some, somebody in the audience was like, that's not what tithing is. You know, I think that unfortunately has been perverted to some degree and certainly the reliance of institutions on the finances that they receive.

And occasionally I think they use tithing as a way of manipulating in a way. You know, I think it's a harsh word, but I don't think it's necessarily inaccurate that there's a way of coercing people into giving.

And yet at the same time, if you're giving out of coercion or obligation, I think you're not really giving at that point. You're sacrificing.

And sacrificing doesn't reap the benefits of gratitude and it doesn't reap the benefits of releasing the scarcity mindset and all those things which I think is ultimately the purpose of these practices.

Peter: 00:35:08

Yeah. And I think, I think you also touched on faith, which is another term problematic or loaded maybe.

Ryan: 00:35:17

Yes.

Peter: 00:35:18

And what it made me think of when you said faith, it's like, well, it's okay. So I think a lot of people mean by faith or a lot of people think that faith means. Right. Is I believe this thing. It's a statement of what I believe.

And not only that, but there's a faithfulness where I cannot change what I believe. Right. I will not change what I believe because I am faithful.

Ryan: 00:35:50

Right.

Peter: 00:35:50

And I'm trying to figure out in the moment where, how that relates to trust because to me, faith conveys more of trust than of belief. Yes, right. It's not belief intellectual. Right. But again, it's one of those things, you know, I don't want to attribute nefarious motivations to it.

Right. But it happens that it's one of those words that's become changed.

Ryan: 00:36:22

Right.

Peter: 00:36:22

And has absolutely been nefariously co opted intentionally perverted in some circumstances. In some circumstances. But. And also.

But also has drifted or has taken on meanings in other circumstances where I am right now, my understanding of faith as a valuable experience. Really what we're talking about is trust.

Ryan: 00:36:50

Yeah.

Peter: 00:36:51

And which goes exactly to what you were saying about scarcity mindset. Yeah, right. It's not, it's not really, to me, it's not about a belief in specifics.

Ryan: 00:37:02

Right.

Peter: 00:37:02

It's about a sense of trust and safety and which is. It's a quality of awakening. And so it goes back to the idea of, well, where are you? Right. And if you are in this space, what does this word mean?

Right. Or if you're not in this, if you're not feeling a quality of awakening, then what does faith mean? You know, then faith is a tool.

It can be, just like we were saying with Tony's practice, it can be these things can be tools to get you to make your experience tend more towards awakening. Or these things can be characteristics of your waking experience. Right. They can come, it can go either way.

And I think likewise faith, I think a common teaching is you must have faith because that is how you will get to this place.

Ryan: 00:38:02

Which is, I guess it's not wrong, but it's not right in the way it's presented.

Peter: 00:38:07

Yeah, I think. All right, now I'm going to get into some specific theological stuff, but it seems to be arising, you know, the idea of the one path, the one way.

Ryan: 00:38:19

Right.

Peter: 00:38:19

Only through me.

Ryan: 00:38:20

Right.

Peter: 00:38:21

Or only through this. I think that's, I'm going to say perversion, but I don't want to, I don't want to castigate believers. Right.

I think it's a turning of this truth, which is there's no awakening experience without faith. Like, if you are an awakening, you're experiencing trust.

Ryan: 00:38:40

Right.

Peter: 00:38:41

That does not mean, and this is where it gets twisted, that the only way you can come into an awakening experience is to start with faith.

Ryan: 00:38:51

Right.

Peter: 00:38:52

And that has become a teaching. And there are people who will kill over that idea, you know, at the very least attack you.

And so that's why I feel you can hear my, my hesitation because this is, I'm being provocative and controversial, but this is my understanding of from where I am now, that that is a mistaken conceptualization of a true teaching.

Ryan: 00:39:20

Right, right, right.

Peter: 00:39:22

The true teaching is. Yeah, you can't, you can't have one without the other. Which is different from saying, first you must do this.

Ryan: 00:39:30

Right.

Peter: 00:39:31

And then you will have the other. No, they will spontaneously coexist.

Ryan: 00:39:35

One is illustrative of the other. I mean, is that fair to say that, like if you.

Peter: 00:39:41

Yeah, I call it a characteristic of experience?

Ryan: 00:39:43

Yeah, yeah.

Peter: 00:39:44

You will recognize it.

Ryan: 00:39:45

Right.

Peter: 00:39:46

And you won't not recognize it. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Where did that come from? I guess because you, you mentioned faith.

Ryan: 00:39:55

Right. But I, I like, I mean, I, I obviously, I 100% agree with the framing and I like that you brought trust.

I think that's a great way to characterize what the essence of faith is. And it's not a intellectual believing. It is intrinsic trust.

Peter: 00:40:18

I guess here's, here's a paradox and not the kind of paradox that I talk about in terms of being able to hold two opposing ideas simultaneously, but this is a real contradiction kind of paradox in that people describe faith. Well, let me put it this way.

If you're one of the faithful, if we're going to put a quotes or capital F or whatever, that's an attachment, which is the opposite of trust. And that's what I just want to point out is that it's kind of where the lost in translation kind of thing that, that I think people believe. Yeah.

They believe in attachment when really what it refers to is a non attachment. Trust is a non attachment.

Ryan: 00:41:05

Right.

Peter: 00:41:06

It's a letting Go. And this is something that, I mean, if you're exploring in this area, you'll recognize that phrase of letting go.

Ryan: 00:41:14

Yeah. So I wonder then is I don't want to get too far off on the digression, starting to get out of scope, but I do want to.

Does that mean going back to the perennial philosophy, perennial wisdom, and recognizing it as a marker?

Does that then in the context of this discussion, is it fair to say that we can, in the pursuit and practice of our chosen pointer, so to speak, in our chosen teachings, teacher apply the perennial wisdom as a mode of discernment? And if the teaching, or if the.

It's not even necessarily the teaching, but if the result, the resulting experience of the teaching isn't in alignment with these fundamental aspects of experience, that there's a caution there because it's not always the teaching. I mean, what we're talking about is a teaching that has become misunderstood and misapplied.

It's not that the original teaching in its original meaning was necessarily off the mark.

Peter: 00:42:21

I mean, I think. I think your use. So the word discernment is the problem because discernment belongs in this area of experience and exploration.

And I think too often it's lost. And more than lost, I think it is devalued. Sure, right.

Ryan: 00:42:42

Yeah.

Peter: 00:42:42

And again, we're talking about toxic.

Ryan: 00:42:45

Right.

Peter: 00:42:46

Institutionalization. We're talking about power issues where basically people are told not to be discernment. Like if you seem to be discerning, then you are unfaithful.

Oh, yeah, right. You are questioning. Which is kind of the opposite of a marker of a true path.

If the path requires a lack of discernment, I would say that's not a true path.

Ryan: 00:43:14

Yeah.

Peter: 00:43:15

Because I mean, I think curiosity is a marker of.

Curiosity and exploration are markers of the awakening experience and a lack of discernment and a requirement for unquestioning belief attaching to, I don't know, something, you know, that's instructed, something that's given as a must. Yeah, exactly. So just that I. I think just a caution that if discernment is a problem for you, then you might have a problem.

I mean, that might not be. Yeah, there might be a problem there. Wow.

Ryan: 00:43:55

So a bit of a digression. It was an impromptu conversation, so, you know, we ended up following that. That thread.

Peter: 00:44:04

We sure did.

Ryan: 00:44:06

I hope you found value in this conversation. And if you're looking for a practice and don't know where to go if you're not inclined towards spiritual, theological path.

Path is pathways, which I don't know if they'd be listening to this podcast. Anyways, if you're curious about Tony Tony Robbins, he does have his free priming audio. You can find it on YouTube. You can find it on his website.

The practice, at least in our opinion, is valuable and worthwhile if you're so inclined to try it. And if you do try it, let us know how you feel about it.

How do you feel about the breathing exercise that seems to be an obstacle for us, but maybe not for you. And what do you think about it? So we love to hear from you. Until next time, stay open, stay curious, and keep tracking Wisdom.

Peter: 00:45:04

Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast. Join us next time as we continue the discussion.

Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, and visit www.eth-studio.com for more information and.