The Dichotomy of Contentment and Growth: A Contemplative Inquiry

Peter: 00:00:00

Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution. They are for informational and entertainment purposes only. Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

Ryan: 00:00:23

All right, good morning everybody and welcome back. I'm Ryan.

Peter: 00:00:25

I'm Peter.

Ryan: 00:00:26

And we are back to continue our conversation that started last episode discussion between Michael Lyden and author Alan Chapman.

And I had a personal observation that came out of watching this content and I wanted to kind of separate because while it was realized or internalized to some degree in response to to the content, it may spawn digression and we may come back to it.

So this is something that I am having a hard time articulating and so I have a little bit of apprehension about my ability to coherently discuss this.

I think one part to just kind of kick off and I don't not 100% sure how relevant this piece is, but part of my observation started with Alan had made a comment about practice and the importance of practice, importance of continuing practice, something to that effect. Yes, and I have a resistance to that concept. I've expressed this before and it's.

It is a very paradoxical experience because on one hand I immediately resist the terminology and the assertion and yet when it is then further discussed, I see where they're going. Like I get the point, I get the value and in many ways probably actualize some of that value.

And in part this touches back on my perception that I don't have practice, I don't engage in practice. And as you've identified for me or helped me to to see is that while it may not be formal or organized practice, there are activities. Is this me?

Sorry. There are activities that I routinely engage in over time that could be considered practice. I don't know why that's relevant.

It was just part of the observation that again, I resisted this assertion that practice is requirement. And I think in part I think it sort of was a springboard toward this broader realization.

And over time I've recognized some of of this experience a much stronger way.

Last night when I was listening to this, and I'm going to provide disclaimer, I guess to you and to the audience that what I'm going to say it touches directly on the work that we're doing here. And I'm not suggesting in any way that I want to like stop doing this work, but it addresses sort of.

Peter: 00:03:25

I mean, everything we say is working stuff out, right? We don't know what the hell we're talking about. We're just. You're so you're just working it out. That's fine.

Ryan: 00:03:35

It has to do specifically with the reaching out and the consumption of teachings. All these teachings that were coming in contact with. And it's been.

There's been many positive things that have come out of this experience and I've recognized and last night it seemed to culminate in some way to the. To the point where I felt like I needed to express this. I feel like sometimes it causes regression in a way. And regression is.

Is a term that is inappropriate for what this actually is because there's no progress or regress.

But in a lot of ways the experience that I had prior to this work, the, the organic, uneducated, you know, just the way I was, was more grounded in the experience than sometimes I feel like now like sometimes I feel like delving into these things raises more question and it creates a hesitation or otherwise disrupts that organic natural experience that I have.

And it's been interesting because while that in and of itself could be described as sort of a negative or regressive type thing, there's been some really positive things that have come out of this. Namely putting context and vernacular around the experience itself, I think has been super helpful and important and even more so.

And I've explained, I've discussed this previously too. I think it was around the time we first talked about the finder stuff is understanding or better understanding the experience of other people.

Because prior to all this interaction interface with these schools of thought and with the people involved in them, it expressed previously that, you know, I never felt different. Right.

And so for me, the natural understanding and experience of what experience is was that the suffering isn't necessary, it's not a requirement, whatever it is. The things that I observe causing people struggles, the things that they call out in pain. Why is this happening or why does this have to be?

I intuitively understand that that's not necessary. But what I didn't understand was the realness and the necessity of the experience for them in them at that time, right. That. That was a disconnection.

And so working with this material has helped me to better understand.

While it's simple, it's not easy kind of thing that that understanding and having a little bit more grace around the challenge many people have around their own experience, a metaphor had come to mind. And I felt like in the time this was a really good metaphor. What I was connecting this experience with.

This is bringing it to a very benign thing is self taught guitar.

The point is I feel like, or this experience feels like I had this intuitive or self taught experience and was playing guitar and enjoying playing guitar. And then I started reading into theory and getting into the mechanics of it.

And it's been interesting to say, oh, that's why I felt this way about this music. Or this is why this works and having some of that context. But in the process I'm playing less guitar.

And the realization to some degree is this learning isn't important, it's fun. And again, this is where I wanted to kind of throw that disclaimer.

I'm not suggesting that I want to abandon this work, but it's not important to my progression, it's not important to my guitar playing. This is how I'm feeling about it. What I'm meant to do is not teach guitar. And this is for me, there's nothing wrong with teaching guitar.

What I'm finding alignment with is playing guitar just being my. My work here, my purpose is the participation in the creation. And this is where I think it.

We may touch back to the video where you're talking because when he came, when he was talking about creation, this is a very, I guess, resonant it. The idea of awakening and the pursuit of awakening isn't playing like it's not being.

There is teaching, there is learning that others can have in observation of my being, but that my role in this is to just be a light to shine and to be a demonstration of the light that is within everyone. That none of us is more or less that that light is there. Whether we shroud it and hide it, or whether we let it shine bright. We all have that.

There's nothing to find, there's nothing to gain, there's nothing to earn. I guess awakening is to understand that that light exists within you, within us. And then the work becomes to lift the veil, lift the shroud.

And I think my place is just to be a bit of a beacon that there is light. I don't know, it's like now it's starting to feel self aggrandizing and stuff. And it's really not meant to be that.

But my point is I've intellectually had and I think spiritually had a desire to share the existence of this essence within everybody. And the natural conceptual way of doing that is to talk is to speak, it is to teach it in that way.

And what I find is that's not my primary modality of being able to teach. My primary. Primarily my role here is just to be. Just to shine as bright as I can and and let that be enough. I've struggled a little bit with.

Well, I've struggled in many ways with this. But one way I've struggled is. So I've experienced times when I have lifted the shroud off of my light and just been a sun, whatever.

You know, I'm trying to use visuals here, but. And then there are other times when I will bring that shroud back on and. And dose the light. There are two primary times that I find that happens.

Number one, when I'm asked. And what I mean by ask is not directly asked, but through. Through interactions with other people, I. This comes to conditioning basically, right?

Like I allow other people's conditioning to trigger my own conditioning. And by conditioning, I'm using the metaphor of bringing a. A shroud around the light, the second one.

So that's something, of course, I can always work on. And to just remember the purpose is to shine regardless.

The second, though, and this one is a little bit more touchy or sensitive, is that there are times that that light causes pain and that pain is manifest in ways like how do you. Or why don't I. Kinds of questions and conversation, right?

Like, it's nothing that I'm doing, but the observation of the piece creates struggle and conflict within people that I care about. And there are times that I will shroud my light in order to not create that. And I think that's not what I should be doing.

I don't think that's the best way for me to align with what I feel drawn to do. But it happens, you know, and so I don't. So I guess this is essentially the general synopsis. I could ramble on with more metaphor.

That just probably goes over the deep end at some point.

But essentially this is what I was coming to, is that there's nothing for me to do except to be and to create and to participate in this and enjoy it and show my love and enjoyment of this act of creation with everybody. And I guess I'll. Before I stop, I wanted to touch. You had a question right at the end of last episode when you.

We, but it was in your context, are feeling like you're touching the infinite. Is that touching the infinite? Or is it just a higher level of conditioning?

And I think that it is touching the infinite because that infinite spark is within all of us and it's fractal. It's been parsed out.

And I think that as we all recognize that essence within ourselves and then likewise within others, the more the defined the divine becomes made manifest into what it is. And it. Eventually we all recognize it and therefore there is no more division. But I don't think that that spark is not the infinite.

Does that make sense? So I guess I'll stop there. That's essentially what kept me up last night.

Peter: 00:15:09

This is really interesting. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah, very interesting. And touches on a bunch of things that I'm. It certainly elicits a lot in me to hear you say this.

I mean, I, I think our, our process is, you know, just to share how we respond to each other experience. Right. I am, I'm looking at, I'm examining the, the shining and existing and non doing.

And I guess I'll start with the question which is, you know, about how your just being affects other people.

The way I'm interpreting what you're saying is that people close to you can get frustrated when you're just being and you're not having reactivity the way they expect you to have. Or I think you, you implied some kind of jealousy of like, why can't I be as relaxed?

Ryan: 00:16:19

Yeah.

Peter: 00:16:20

And I'm wondering, I'm pausing because I'm trying to see why I'm saying what I want to say. But I'm just gonna put it out there because that's what we're doing, right.

It's like, it's not, I'm not making judgments or, or saying, well, I think this is what you're, you're going through. I'm wondering if it's a very common experience of awakening. Non doing is kind of an essential, common experience of awakening.

And like what you're describing as just playing guitar or just shining or just participating, creation, just being. Right. Is that.

Ryan: 00:17:09

Yep.

Peter: 00:17:10

Fair. And one of the first things I kind of.

My first responses as you started to go through this was the observation of my experience of periods of doing and non doing. And I think this is, you know, kind of what Chapman touched on as well, is like getting stuck in what he calls stuck.

And we're putting air quotes because we're having that discussion of, well, is that bad? So one way of interpreting what you're describing. Let me offer that. Right. And I've kind of had this question.

It's kind of an ongoing question because you have this experience of early or permanent or like early awakening or not remembering a non awakened time. And so my question is, isn't that itself a condition? And I think so.

In our usage and predominantly my usage of conditioning, I tend to use conditioning to refer to problematic conditioning. But it's been repeatedly pointed out to me in the PoK community that everything is conditioning, right?

And so basically until we get out of the space time interface, everything's conditioning. And the way that we experience the infinite is conditioned.

We're experiencing the unconditioned, we can touch the unconditioned, but our experience of it is conditioned. Does that?

Ryan: 00:18:51

I think so.

Peter: 00:18:52

Makes sense.

Ryan: 00:18:53

I think so.

Peter: 00:18:53

I mean, I've said this before, like as long as we are incarnated in a human brain, then we're constrained. And so in that sense, or you know, as I said earlier, as long as we're in space time, we're constrained, we're conditioned.

And so what I'm saying is that your experience of shining and just being and all that, that's still conditioned. And so what I'm postulating is that you find yourself in an extended period of non doing that started very early.

That your path, like the way you're experiencing awakening process is that in a spiritual sense because you either were born with a clear sense of the awakening path or awakening or fundamental being or whatever you could call it, right? That it became this extended period of spiritual nondoing. I mean, obviously you've had a productive life.

It's not that kind of non doing, but there's another kind of non doing. And then you reached out to me and we started exploring in a way that neither of us have explored before.

But for you it's quite different because I've. I was already a seeker. And so I think what I'm proposing is that there's more dissonance for you.

There's more discomfort in kind of coming out of that phase of non doing and wanting to stay, you know, and it's not, and it's not a judgment of like, oh, but you should be growing or oh, you should be progressing. It's just, oh, this is just the way you're experiencing. Like this is your path has this quality of this huge extended period of non doing.

Which doesn't mean that's not going to change. It doesn't mean it's not going to evolve. But I think really there's no way not to be attached to it if that's what's familiar to you. Right?

I mean, for a very long time. So yeah, so I've been talking to people a lot lately about non doing. I mean, it's come up, one of my friends mentioned, I think it's how I met her.

I think it's how I met her because she mentioned non doing in, in a group and I was like, oh, we need to talk. And. And it's actually been kind of a central element of our relationship is talking about non doing.

And I mean, non doing means a lot of different things. It's expressed in a lot of different ways. Like it can be a pra. It can be part of the practice itself. It's paradoxical, right?

The practice of non doing. Do some non doing. But it is. I mean, it is a specific form of meditation that we talk about. And in fact, I heard the instruction recently.

I think it was a talk.

It was like, so, you know, at the end of every period of meditation, you should try to have a period of non doing, of a period of just letting the meditation go and just being, because that's the actual essence of meditation. And I think that it's kind of like sinking in, which is that, you know, it's something that Jeffrey teaches, is that when you.

When you have fundamental being and there are times when you touch it, it's important to just sink in because that's what will help you to progress. And I mean, guess the way I would express it is you're touching the infinite or you're touching the unconditioned.

And if you focus on that experience of touching the unconditioned, it kind of lets that portal open. It's like relaxing into it. So I think. I mean, it's interesting to me to think of that because I've. I've.

Ever since you've described, you know, recognizing fundamental well, being as being your inherent condition, I've always had this question, like, how do I relate to that? Right. And how. I mean, you've had the experience of, like, how do I relate from where this is, right? And so now from. From a bigger perspective.

Well, from the perspective of fundamental beings. Not a goal, right? It's a characteristic of awakening.

It's a fundamental, recognizable characteristic of the awakening path that I think Jeffrey defines as like, it's the transition point, right? But it's not awakening.

Ryan: 00:23:32

Right.

Peter: 00:23:33

It's a characteristic of awakening.

And this is where I think I understand what Crowley is saying is that if you think fundamental well, being is awakening and that you should be trying to stay there, then you're not seeing the nature of awakening. It doesn't mean that it's a bad choice. It's just understanding what it is. And so I think what the way I'm interpreting what you're saying is really.

It's a weird interpretation because I'm like, listening to you. I'm like, oh, oh, your conditioning is such that you're gonna stay in fundamental well being like to a larger extent than most people. Right.

And you're experiencing some discomfort around finding yourself in that. Like that's the way it is for you. Does that make sense?

I mean, discomfort in the sense that you don't like causing pain for other people, but it is doing that. Yeah, but that's why what I'm saying is that. But that's just conditioning. That's.

Yeah, like, I think there's like, in a way you have a simplified condition. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, that's not a multi layered.

Ryan: 00:24:56

It's not like, not deep either.

Peter: 00:24:57

It's not like multi layered trauma where it's like, oh, there's this, then there's that. And then like, oh, I just realized that this, you know, I have to deal with this. It's taken on face value. Yeah, that's.

I mean, because I, I don't, I don't know you. But it would be a simplified condition.

Right, but what I'm saying is that it's still a condition and that's okay because I mean, we, we don't judge our conditioning, but it's the difference between just reckoning. Oh, okay. So that's condi. It's. It does sound paradoxical though, right? It's like, oh, my conditioning is that I'm attached to fundamental well, being.

Well, of course, but I think that's kind of the same thing that Chapman was saying and that I was touching on. It's like, well, it's a choice or it's. It's not. It's a choice and it's not a choice. Right, because if you're conditioned, then it's not a choice.

You're conditioned to make the choice of having, as you said, like having. Realizing that your role is. But I sense some discomfort in the expression of that.

And so that's why I'm saying that's what makes me kind of realize like, oh, that's the conditioning. I don't know. There's something. Yeah, it's, it's.

Ryan: 00:26:20

I think that was helpful. It brought up two contemplative. Contemplative questions basically pointed back at me.

But I'm going to articulate them to you and maybe we can work through this together.

I think touching on maybe the progression and the deepening aspect, there's a resistance, I think, to an interpretation on my part that what is being taught is that I need something more. And I think this is exactly what you were touching on and that I don't Feel like I need anything more. I'm not inclined.

I do this work more so because the greater part of the project we're doing here and the work that we're doing is interesting and aligned with my place in creation more so than I'm following this to deepen my own experience. I think. I think that again, to touch or to.

To make explicit again, if it wasn't explicit already, that there has been true value that has come out of doing this sick, you know, quote, unquote, textbook kind of work and bringing awareness and context and vernacular to the experience. But I don't think it has specifically deepened the experience, nor am I really looking for it to do so. Maybe it would.

And this kind of leads to the second contemplative question, which is going to the metaphor. If we think about a trained guitarist, they are inherently a. They're not inherently. It is more likely that you will become a fine guitarist.

A fine meaning, like a prized guitarist with the textbook understanding and knowledge and fundamentals over somebody who is only organically learning this on their own. There. There is likely to be some level of plateau for that person.

That person being the person who is pursuing learning guitar on their own, organically without the fundamentals, there's likely some level of plateau. So the question then becomes, and there is no right or wrong here, obviously, am I more content? Is it more aligned with my intent and.

And desire to just play guitar and am I content with the level of playing guitar that I have? Or is there true value in becoming a fine guitarist and going down into. Into more detailed fundamentals?

Even though it's going to take away time that I can play guitar, it's going to disrupt the enjoyment of playing guitar and that. That flow state of being in. In the play. But the outcome could be. It doesn't guarantee. But the outcome could be that I become a better guitarist.

That was an observation. I don't know if there's really an answer to that because it really reflects on me, what the hell do I want? But.

Peter: 00:29:43

So.

Ryan: 00:29:44

But that's what I'm feeling.

Peter: 00:29:45

So. So my. My question, it's what the hell? No, my. No, my immediate question is what's asking the question.

Ryan: 00:29:51

Right. I mean, ego's asking that question, right?

Peter: 00:29:55

I'm gonna say the question. The nature of a question is doubt. Yeah, I mean, well, not necessarily there's curiosity. I guess that's the question.

Maybe, you know, is that a question of doubt or is it a question of curiosity? It sounds like a question of doubt.

Ryan: 00:30:12

No, I would say curiosity. But maybe. Maybe doubt. Now, I wouldn't say doubt.

Peter: 00:30:16

It could be doubt. I'm not sure.

Ryan: 00:30:18

Let me ask my ego. No, because 100%. Without a doubt. Without a doubt, I'm content and. And happy being in the place that I am.

Peter: 00:30:31

And. And that's the. That's a clear marker, right, of like, yeah, contentment is contentment. And so why the question? I mean, I think that's the condition.

I think that's, as you said, that's the ego. There's some conditioning there that feels like it has to ask the question despite the contentment.

Ryan: 00:30:51

Yeah, I guess.

Peter: 00:30:52

Right. So. Aha. So we found some conditioning. I mean. I mean, I feel like that's just to observe. Right.

It's like, you know, you're content, and yet there's still some element of conditioning that says, oh, well, maybe I shouldn't be content.

Ryan: 00:31:12

So I think what. I think it is.

Peter: 00:31:14

What's the choice?

Ryan: 00:31:14

The. The conditioning is being triggered by an interpretation that the teaching is I should be doing more.

Peter: 00:31:20

Right.

Ryan: 00:31:21

When I'm content with. With where I'm at. Right. Fundamentally, I understand that if I'm happy where I'm at, there's no need. And maybe that's where my resistance comes in.

Something like, there is no need. And yet I feel like the teaching is, you need to do more. And it's not just me, but that there's a.

An underlying message that you broadly should be doing more. This is.

Peter: 00:31:45

This is interesting. So I've been having the same experience, but my path has been a little bit different. Right.

And so, as I said, I've been having conversations recently about non doing.

And the reason I've been having those conversations is because I've become more comfortable with non doing, which is interesting to have the two of us having this conversation because I'm coming from a path of striving to reduce suffering, and you're coming from a path of reduced suffering.

And now we're both coming to non doing in you're only now, it sounds like only now coming to the conflict of, oh, these teachings are saying there's more doing, but I know there's not. And I'm at the position of like, oh, I finally understand not doing, and it's fine. It's like. And so. So my recent specific experience.

Did I tell you about Spider Man?

Ryan: 00:32:53

I don't think so.

Peter: 00:32:54

Oh, so at the beginning of the month or at the end of November, December, you know, beginning of December, I bought a video game. So I haven't. I haven't played Video games in quite some time. And Spider Man. What is it? I think it's whatever, it's.

It's the Spy the Spider man video game, right? Used to be on PS2 or whatever, so I couldn't. I didn't have access to.

And then it came to Steam, which is the, the PC, whatever, I don't even know about. It's where I buy my games, right? So it came there and I've been watching it. I'm like, oh, that's so cool. That looks like a really good game.

I, you know, I'd like that. And it's been like a couple years. I've been seeing, seeing it and then finally it. It like went on a big sale.

A sale that for me was big enough, right? I don't know, Maybe I spent $30 on it and I got it and I started playing it and I was really, really into it. I mean, this.

I have not been as into a game since I got my very first game in the 90s because it was, I think, the 90s that I bought my first computer and, and I never had like a game console as a kid or anything. This is like the first time I had my own game and I got a game which was unreal and boy, I was so into.

I really enjoyed it and then said, since, since the 90s. I like, I played some. And there's some games that I've, you know, played, but not like, not the same way and this time.

So last month I put in like over 30 hours in a couple of weeks and I was just like, wow, this is great. And I was watching myself and I was like, am I, you know, am I getting sucked into desire and am I getting attached to this?

And I was like, no, I'm not. This is just what I'm doing.

And it was the first time that I've done something like that and not felt guilty about it and had the understanding of like, no, this is what the system is doing right now. The system is playing this out literally. But there was this sense of. It sounds kind of sick fulfillment. This is like, I've always wanted this.

There's a need. This is fulfilling some need. And. And the fact is, I fantasized about being Spider man since I was a child in the 60s, right. I mean, it was like.

I mean, I identified with Peter Park. Peter. Peter Parker. Right. Oh, he's a geek. He's bullied. You know, it's like I really identified with that.

I have recurring dreams about being Spider Man. Not very often, but it's been for years, like, very. Every once in a while, I'll, like, have webs and I'm spinning. I'm like, I'm. I'm.

Yeah, it's like, very weird because I'm not like a comic book geek. It's like, I don't spend a lot of time, whatever, you know, I mean, I've seen the movies, but I'm not that much of a intense fan, per se.

And yet I do have some kind of identification there, and it has some kind of significance. And so playing this game wasn't just like, playing the game.

It was, like, seemed very meaningful, and I was very serious about it as well, which I'm usually not. Like, I was playing the game very differently than I would typically play a game.

It's very relaxed, but it was also very deliberate and not at all like, oh, I have to get to the next level. In fact, I spent a lot of time like, oh, let me just collect all the things. Like, I'm just gonna clear, like, all the. The backpacks.

I think it's just, you know, there are a bunch of different mechanics of things you collect. And it wasn't about getting really good at the game because I kind of suck at it. Like, it was funny because I. My son watched me play and he was like.

He was ragging on me. He's like, oh, don't. Oh, I crashed into the wall. Help me. You know, it was. It was pretty. Pretty vicious. So I'm clearly not very good at it.

But the point is that I was watching it while I was doing it. Like, I was watching myself spend all this time playing the game and like, oh, do I need to be. You know, am I.

Is this taking me away from family time? Like, nope, no one's looking for me. People are doing their own thing. It's like, there's nothing wrong with me doing this, which is weird.

And so that was my first or the biggest, clearest example of non doing in the system. Like, I didn't feel like I had to. It's not like, oh, I have to play this game right? It's like, oh, this is what the system is doing.

This is where the conditioning is flowing and. And I'm not. It's like, it's not toxic and I'm not resisting. So it was. And then after two or three weeks, I just stopped. And it's not right.

I hadn't accomplished, like, I hadn't, like, beaten the main boss or finished the game or. There was no accomplishment. It was just like, oh, I'M I'm not playing anymore. You know, I've gone back a couple of times and it's.

It's still kind of fun, but it's not the same. Like, I fulfilled something.

Ryan: 00:38:44

Yeah.

Peter: 00:38:46

And so. Yeah. And so I've had a couple of conversations about that and about non doing with people.

And it's like they recognize, like, oh, yeah, you know, you're. You're in non doing, which is something that, you know, Jeffrey talks about a lot, right.

This loss of motivation and this, like, it just doesn't matter. So anyway, my point is that, you know, stop being out in nature. But for me, that's what non doing is. And for me, that was a very special event.

Like, it stands out very much in my life as like, oh, that was a very different experience to be comfortable with non doing. And so I'm just looking at our juxtaposition there. Yeah, right.

Ryan: 00:39:37

Yeah. For the listener. I know you know this, but just to be clear, like, non doing doesn't mean not active. Right.

In many ways, I've been way more productive in the past couple of months than I have Right. In the two, three years prior.

Peter: 00:39:54

It's not, it's not striving. It's not feeling like you have. You need to get something done.

Ryan: 00:40:01

Right.

Peter: 00:40:02

I need another break, but I have a bunch of questions still.

Ryan: 00:40:05

Okay, sounds good. I going to close this episode and we can pick this up in the next one. Thank you all for listening and we will catch you next time.

Peter: 00:40:18

Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast. Join us next time as we continue the discussion.

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