The Role of Adversity in Personal Growth: A Deep Dive

Peter: 00:00:05

Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution. They are for informational and entertainment purposes only. Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

Ryan: 00:00:23

So I had mentioned to you that my wife and I had joined the Tony Robbins seminar. Highly recommended. And I recognize something.

This is a recurring thing and we've talked about it before, but since we're looking to talk, I can bring it up again. So he was. He was talking about problems, challenges, difficulties in people's lives and how we have a.

Our reaction is to minimize challenges and observe them or perceive them as negative things, as things to get rid of. And he was talking about how important it is for those challenges to come up for growth.

Like, you really can't grow without being stretched and without. Without kind of pushing those limits outside your comfort zone.

And when I was, I mean, he was sharing much of his past and experiences, which was very difficult growing up, and has kind of led him to where he is now. And in many ways, what he does is something I aspire to do or be for people, that.

That kind of source of inspiration and problem solving and helping people to be the greatest versions of themselves.

And I find difficult for me to find my pathway into that realm much because I feel like I don't have the problems that so many people have, which I know, boohoo. But at the same time, I have this, like, strong drive and internal pull towards that kind of work, but I don't know how to get there.

You know, it kind of goes back to our discussion about our colleague who's like, promoting and telling you things, but they don't actually do that. Right. Like, to connect with people in that way is important. Frequently or often having that sense of accomplishment. This, I went through this.

I can relate. This is how I was able to overcome it.

And so can you, versus somebody who's like, I've heard of these things and I've never really experienced them, and this is how I've never experienced them.

Peter: 00:02:43

So. So I very much identify with that kind of historically because I've always felt like I've had quite a privileged life. Now part of that is minimizing.

Ryan: 00:03:03

Sure.

Peter: 00:03:05

So I'm going to throw something out there in the spirit of our trusting relationship. Sure. And it's, It's. It's a little bit tongue in cheek, but also like, not. And it's like, well, so my thought, this.

And this just came to me is how much we talk about the sun being behind the clouds and the gold being covered and obscured. And you know that people have this inner wisdom that, that most of the time they just can't hear it because there's so much noise.

Because life is so distracting or because conditioning, you know, is so distracting. And you know the challenges that they have.

And so it occurs to me, hypothetically, it's like, well, maybe you have freaking challenges that they're just obscured by your fundamental well being because you have such a. But they're obscured, so they're there for you to find.

And this goes to what you said, you said a couple of times about you're not dealing with conditioning. And I think for very good reason, because it's not in your face. Why go looking for trouble? Right, Right.

And I think a lot of us who go into shadow work go into shadow work, you know, because, I mean, why. It's not because like, oh, I want to, I want to have an awakening experience. So I'm going to go in shadow where it's like I'm freaking out.

I don't know what my freaking problem is. Somebody help me. And then somebody guides you, you know, in. Into shadow work, which is what we've been talking about a little bit off mic.

So it occurs to me, which is not something that has I've ever heard of. So, you know, that's, that's another like mentor question. Did I ever talk to you about the Finders course, mentors office hours?

Ryan: 00:05:05

Maybe not.

Peter: 00:05:06

So anyway, on Wednesdays, mentors from the finders course do have office hours. And I might go and ask this question. Friend of mine just ask you for a friend of mine asking for a friend.

Ryan: 00:05:22

And I mean, I want to be clear that obviously I've encountered things that are challenging.

What I observe is that the things that I've encountered that are challenging and the way I observe the vast majority of people that I've experienced, how they react to them is not how I react to them. And therefore I get a different experience.

The problem that I see or the, the challenge in being that inspirational person is that I didn't have to overcome it. Like, as far as I can remember, this is how I interacted with these things. So how.

Peter: 00:06:07

Oh, I see.

Ryan: 00:06:08

You know, how do you be that? How do you present as a person who, who overcame the challenges? And so can you if it's like, you know, well, that' point.

Peter: 00:06:19

Okay, okay.

Ryan: 00:06:20

And.

Peter: 00:06:21

Oh, it's interesting though, because it's interesting the difference between our perceptions of that, I think, because I was good. Because when you started this, I was like, oh yeah, I know, I feel the same way.

And now I realize, oh, we're talking about different things, so I'll follow up with a different thing. So. So yeah, so if you're, if your goal is. Is specifically to.

Or your intention is very specific to helping people overcome obstacles where you haven't had experience in overcoming obstacles, that's a challenge. But why is that, why is that a specific goal? I mean, because.

Ryan: 00:07:10

Yeah, it's just something that I have felt a draw to and it's not like I want to be the, you know.

Peter: 00:07:17

Right.

Ryan: 00:07:18

It's a very, I mean we've talked about it previously that I observe suffering and I want to be a source of. I feel like I have some amount of awareness and understanding of how this can be resolved or minimized and I want to help people.

But maybe obviously that specific archetype or exactly, you know, identity is it for me. But something in that realm. How, how do I find that niche?

Peter: 00:07:50

Exactly. Because you're you. You have a lot of available examples or models that don't match.

Ryan: 00:07:57

Right.

Peter: 00:07:58

Your circumstance.

Ryan: 00:07:59

Right.

Peter: 00:08:00

So you know, you're not gonna be a Tony Robbins because you didn't have.

Ryan: 00:08:05

Right.

Peter: 00:08:05

The kind of over the kind of experience of overcoming challenge. You're going to be a different kind of helper. Which kind of goes to the story. A couple of stories I was going to tell.

So one was, and it's very much along these in the same vein of, you know, in being a mindfulness meditation teacher.

Certainly in my experience in coming into a program and you know, kind of, excuse me, getting on a path to becoming a teacher early on, I absolutely had the same sentiment or feeling of yeah, how can I relate to difficulty or how can I help people overcome difficulty when I've had a very easy life.

And of course, you know, when you go into a program with a thousand people, there are going to be a lot of people who had it a lot harder than you did. You know, especially if you're already self identifying as. Yeah, I'm privileged. There's going to be a lot of people who had it worse than you.

And so of course, you know, I heard some stories and so the. But the funny thing to. Kind of funny to me at the end of. So we just had the closing ceremony and we heard from some program alumni and they were.

They're pretty different backgrounds and demographics of the kind of teaching that. So one talked about. She teaches children meditation to it sound like school age kids or even preschool. And another teaches lawyers.

So she's a lawyer Who. And she. She's an active lawyer and a law professor and a consultant and teaches mindfulness. And then another has a nature reserve or some kind of.

I'll just say nature reserve. And you know, as she puts it, speaks for the trees and the butterflies and the bees and like, all this stuff.

And then the fourth is in Washington D.C. and is an activist.

And his, his work is to speak truth to power and, and walk the corridors of, you know, the government and teach mindfulness in that sphere. So really different stuff. Right. And then one of them told the story about how they had a stroke. He said, so just to keep on.

It's like, honestly, like, the reason I value the practice is because I know it was a year ago. I mean, sound fairly recent.

Like I had a stroke and it's not that it wasn't terrifying, but I was actually able to be present with the experience of having a stroke because of the practices. And it's like he's telling the story, like, and, you know, recovery from the stroke and all this. The next person speaks up and they're all.

They'd all like, already introduce themselves and stuff and. Well, that's really interesting because I have an unraptured, unruptured aneurysm in my head and I have another unraptured.

And she was like, like, I have a 1cm unraptured aneurysm in my head and a 2cm unraptured aneurysism in my neck. And so every time I get vertical, I consider it a blessing. And because M's like, oh my God. Like.

And then the next person said, well, I didn't mention it before, but, but I was unable to walk for four years after my, after giving birth to this. And it's like.

And it was just like, it was, it was a little hilarious because it sounded like this competition of like, you know, challenges, as you're saying. But it was, it was kind of shocking. It's like, oh my God, I can't believe you're. That's what you're going through, you know, So I. What was my point?

Well, I, I just, I was going to tell that. That was a story I was just thinking of telling. And then it. Oddly, you introduced this idea of, of having challenges and it seemed to match a bit.

So what did you. You said, Tony said it's very important to have those challenges, to experience development. Right. Yeah, to.

And just to just to introduce a couple of metaphors with that. Like, as you're growing, you have to have weight bearing stress.

Ryan: 00:12:45

Yes.

Peter: 00:12:45

For your bones to develop properly and as you age, you have to challenge your bones with weight bearing stress in order to maintain your bone integrity. And, you know, a butterfly needs to struggle against the chrysalis to survive.

Ryan: 00:13:03

Right.

Peter: 00:13:04

So there's a story of someone, you know, finding a hatching butterfly, butterfly emerging from the chrysalis and they help it and they remove the chrysalis and the butterfly dies because it's not biologically viable for to have the chrysalis removed. So just, you know, just to say that Tony's point obviously is well supported by biology. A number of examples from biology.

So what I was talking about before was how.

All right, so I told Ryan off mic about basically getting into touch with some legacy trauma and not realizing that having a parent who went through war experience actually gave me legacy trauma. And when I, when I went into it and confronted it directly and deeply, I realized I'm not going to do it now.

But when I was telling this story to Ryan, I was like starting to break down, just recounting the experience of having this realization and insight and experiencing contacting for the first time what that experience was for my parent. It did not happen to me, but my parent was a war survivor.

And unexpectedly, I mean, to me, it's very, very difficult to imagine that I would actually directly carry that trauma, but I found that I did. And I really was describing this as 80% of what, I guess why I am maybe critical or angry.

There's some problematic aspect of my personality where I could see, okay, some of it's due to my direct experience, but 80% of it was due to what internal family systems calls a legacy burden.

And it was really, really strange to have that experience of discovering that I was actually experiencing this generational trauma, because in theory it sounds like, oh, okay, you know, it makes sense.

But to actually experience it and go through the emotional breakdown of directly confronting it and reconnecting with it for the purpose of healing was very, very weird. And I guess my point is that I think it's probably common.

I can say it is common for those of us who are called to help helping profession or helping paths, we feel unqualified. Like, how can I do this? I don't have the kind of suffering of the people that I think I'm going to be helping. Right.

And I think it's like, yeah, that's just because you don't know. I mean, I'm going to postulate or hypothesize.

It's not the right word, but that, you know, the reason that we have this calling is, whether we know it or not, we have that suffering. And maybe part of the work on the path to becoming a helper is finding. Looking for that, you know, sounds kind of weird.

You know, it kind of sounds like, oh, I have to go find some trauma, you know, but it's not that. It's not, oh, I have to find some trauma because I want to be good at this. It's. It's more that you want to be good at. Why do you. My. What I'm.

What I'm suggesting, what I'm proposing is that the reason that we want to be good at it is because we carry this trauma and we don't know it. Right. Like, that's the karma, that's the cause for this calling that we feel like, oh, we actually, Our suffering, we just don't know it.

Like, to our naked eye, we seem to be privileged in terms of, like, I had an easy life. I never had any, you know, poverty or physical insecurity or, you know, dangerous environments and things like that. But, you know, maybe.

Maybe there's some in your background. And then the. The point I was making to Ryan before was that if I didn't make a point of contacting this.

This legacy burden, I would never have known that it was there.

And that everyone we meet, even if they seem to be from very favorable circumstances and even if they come from, you know, family legacies of ease, that's where it's most likely that they're unaware of ancestral trauma. You know, and. And I. I guess the other thing is, and this is, trauma can also take different forms, like perpetrators are also traumatized.

But I think in terms of. I don't know, I don't want to state this too strongly. I guess I just want to say there's a possibility of being called to helping work.

And maybe we should actually try to really do some deep work and understand what specific burdens we carry, because they may not be visible. And. And it's not a contest. I mean, the thing is that connecting with suffering, how we relate to suffering is. Is the gift.

That is how you help people with struggles. It's. How do you relate to the suffering? It's not the struggle. Right, right. It's the suffering of the struggle.

And so I guess what the point is, even if you don't have struggle, you have suffering. And even if you don't have visible suffering, you probably have invisible suffering.

And my proposal is that if we have a calling, then that's probably A marker for invisible suffering. So this would be interesting. This just came on the fly in this conversation.

So it's like, oh, we'll see if Ryan gets into therapy and uncovers some legacy burden that. Well, was.

Ryan: 00:19:23

Yeah, I mean, I think you touched on at least one of the intuitive responses I had to that question.

Like when I was thinking about it in, in the seminar, my initial reaction was, well, you had to have come overcome something like basically saying, saying to myself, if you think back and really kind of reflect on, you will probably be able to find the thing or multiple things that you overcame and it's just not in the conscious awareness at the moment.

And then the second response, which is basically the complete polar opposite, is what we had talked about before and we were talking about earlier as far as the non doing. And when I talked a couple weeks ago about saying, I just need to be in my light or, you know, being.

Being who I am and not trying to be somebody I'm not is enough. That is the path. Or, you know, that that could be the path. Is the path.

And you know, this new thing with fiction writing and stuff could also be a pathway of, of helping to communicate my philosophies and understanding in the existential questions and kind of addressing those things in a safe way. Right.

And in a way that doesn't have to rely on my own personal anecdotes, but that you can bring the inquisition, the process of inquiry to an audience in a fictional way using fictional but relatable experiences and, and kind of allow that process to unfold for the reader. May also be part of my path.

Peter: 00:21:18

Yeah, I mean, I mean the other thing is, you know, awakening teachers and non dual teachers don't generally deal with suffering very much. And like, that's not the content of their teaching. And so maybe that's just not the content that.

Ryan: 00:21:34

Yeah.

Peter: 00:21:34

Of your work. Maybe it is, as you say, you know, another valuable gift or lesson or teaching is just being.

And you know, your ability to model that is just a different gift. I mean, yeah, you know, your gift is what it is and I'm grateful for it. I could go find another gift. I don't like this one.

Ryan: 00:22:02

I'm going to re. Gift this. No. And of course I am very grateful for the gift whining.

I know it's a good problem to have to have the issue of I have a gift I want to share. And I'm struggling to fully understand how best to share that gift.

Peter: 00:22:27

But okay, let me think about this because I definitely have this impulse with you to pursue this. And I don't think it's just. What's the word? I don't think it's egocentrism.

I don't think it's like, well, this is my experience, so you know, it's gotta be the same for you. But there's, there's something about, I mean, the fact is you do keep on bringing it up and it's like, yeah, conditioning.

That is like your relationship to conditioning or you know, kind of as you describe it, your non. Relationship to conditioning. And it's like, okay, you know, me thinks he does pretend.

No, I mean, so maybe, I mean there's, there's, look, there's two possibilities. Maybe there are three possibilities, but at least there's a possibility that. Okay, you just don't have conditioning.

Ryan: 00:23:23

Yeah, I don't think.

Peter: 00:23:24

You know, and then there's the possibility of you have a hell of a lot more conditioning than you think you do because you just have no reason to confront it because you have such ready access to fundamental well being. And I don't know what the third possible wanted would be. Would be. I guess you have something in the middle. Something in the middle.

But yeah, so there, there are some thoughts I. This is like a can of worms. I don't want to open right this moment.

But there's some directions I've thought of going with you in different conversations that I'll just kind of like leave that teaser there. Yeah, I'm curious about it though. I mean we're both curious about it.

Ryan: 00:24:09

Which is interesting because I mean even when we talked earlier off mic and you were talking about self criticism.

Peter: 00:24:17

Oh yeah.

Ryan: 00:24:18

Right.

Peter: 00:24:18

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: 00:24:19

And like that's a fairly, I think, common marker of or experience of conditioning.

Peter: 00:24:26

Yeah.

Ryan: 00:24:27

And I really don't have much if at all of that. And that doesn't mean that there's no conditioning. But my point is that why is that.

Peter: 00:24:37

But, but you, but, but when I said we. But do you criticize others and then you laugh because you do criticize others.

Ryan: 00:24:44

But not myself.

Peter: 00:24:45

Right, but that, but not everybody has to have every kind of conditioning.

Ryan: 00:24:49

Oh, I know that.

Peter: 00:24:49

Right. So I mean, so you just don't have self. Like all of your negativity is turned outward or whatever. I don't know, it's everybody else's fault.

But I mean that's just, that is a way of being. There are people who don't experience any sense of depression, anger turned inward. They just are convinced that it's everybody else's problem.

And yeah, I so I don't think it's. I think it's interesting, but I don't think it's necessarily hugely significant that you don't have self criticism. Right.

I mean, there's lots of things that you. There's things that I don't have.

Ryan: 00:25:27

Right, right.

Peter: 00:25:28

I mean, I don't have body image. Like, I don't have a great body, but I don't have a body image problem. Like, that's, like, that's fine. I don't care, you know, But.

But I mean, like, that's fair. My mentor has body image problems. It's like, how the hell do you have a body image problem? Like, you know. Yeah, it's people. People are what they are.

Like, it's. It's very, very strange, though, how. How we do have what we have. Right. And I guess also the other thing is everybody else's conditioning is strange.

Like, I can sympathize with it. Yeah, Right. But it's like, how can you not see how wrong these things are? Like, how can it not bother you?

How can you not want to be fixing something? You know, that's. That's my. It's like, how is it possible? I mean, Jesus, it's just like constantly walking up to a sink. How is this. Okay.

Ryan: 00:26:33

Yeah, yeah. I mean, my external critic has probably gone through iterations, and it's definitely been.

I mean, obviously we're both familiar with the time 10 years ago where I was in a much different place mentally at work. Right. And there's clearly frustration. I think there was criticism. I know there was criticism, but I also feel like that criticism was legitimate.

Peter: 00:27:02

Yeah.

Ryan: 00:27:02

You know, I had legitimate gripes that I felt like weren't being addressed. And I think that my interaction with that emotion now is much more mature. But I don't know that.

I don't know how much of it was actual progress from me versus culturally.

Peter: 00:27:20

The problem started to go away.

Ryan: 00:27:22

No, it's so happen. So what? No, it always. So that was not my. I wouldn't call that my baseline interaction with that kind of thing.

And in part, there were cultural elements of where we were that started to drive that kind of behavior. And internally, I always kind of felt like it wasn't the right response, but it seemed to be the response that was rewarded by action.

And so it wasn't ever addressed until it was by two very close friends of mine. And then I was able to snap out of that because I always had this underlying sense that this wasn't the way to go about it.

But nobody was Correcting me on it.

Peter: 00:28:14

So here's a question. Did you experience that as suffering? Because it seemed to me that you were suffering. That's what appeared. That's how it looked to me.

Ryan: 00:28:32

Yeah. I mean, it probably. It's gonna sound like a stupid answer, I would say.

Not in the way that I imagine suffering is for people, but it was probably as much suffering as I suffer. That's a stupid answer.

Peter: 00:28:52

No, I'm just saying that because.

Ryan: 00:28:56

Frustration. Frustration. Because I felt like it was very obvious and that I was hearing one thing and seeing another, and.

And that has always been a source of frustration for me, because what I hear is, I want this, but I'm doing everything counterproductive to doing that, and that is just something that rubs me the wrong way.

Peter: 00:29:27

Yeah. And I really identify with that, and I really also identify with the other side of it. This is weird. So I'm just thinking about. So here I am.

Here I am graduating from, you know, my mindfulness meditation teacher certification program officially. And. And so I'm, you know, in my office for, like, three or four hours, right? And then I come out and I, like, basically, I hear.

I hear my kid being rude to my wife, and I scream at her. I like, tear into her, like, you got to stop. You got to look at your behavior and stuff. Like, cognitive dissonance much.

And so I'm thinking, God, from her perspective, how frustrating must that be? Right? Jesus. Literally. Literally screaming at her that she had to change her behavior, literally, after just graduating. Oh, my God. But, I mean.

But this is the reality of the human condition. This is one of the things that I learned. It's like, that's not abnormal.

Ryan: 00:30:58

Right.

Peter: 00:30:59

Which is a weird thing. And it's not making an excuse. I mean, look, it was really wrong to yell at her. I. I really regret.

And thank God I was able to apologize, and she was fine with it, which I'm not sure how I feel with that. It's like, okay, is that a sign of deeper trauma, or is it just generosity? So. Which I think, honestly, is both. I.

One thing that concerns me is that I. I really want to work with her to surface these things and have actual conversations about how traumatic it is to have someone. Exactly.

That, you know, graduating program and also screaming at you. And, like. And I mean, to the point.

I mean, this also goes to the whole legacy burden thing, because it's only in the past month that I've become aware of my legacy burden. And so obviously, I haven't been in not being aware of it. I couldn't have been completely successful in stopping it, you know.

And, and so this has been a big stressor for me this weekend because I continued to work with internal family systems therapy book.

And I'm learning about the impact on developing kids developing internal family systems, their system in the environment of a dysfunctional family system. I'm like, oh shoot. And then I'm like, meanwhile I'm like enacting it at the same time I'm reading about it. It's crazy. Crazy.

So that's, that's a major stressor is. And, and so, and so the challenge. Oh yeah, a challenge. We were talking about challenges.

A challenge is, you know, to understand this and be responsible for it without being guilty about it. And, and I, I understand that it's not my fault in terms of. This is the way friggin people work.

Like we have wounds and we pass them on and then if we're lucky, we get to understand them and heal them and hopefully help other people heal them. That's, you know. But the healing part I would say unfortunately is more the exception.

Ryan: 00:33:23

Right.

Peter: 00:33:24

The rule is the, is the whole. All the rest of it. And so the challenge is like taking on the responsibility and not attaching the guilt to it. Anything else?

Ryan: 00:33:39

What does that look like? So what I hear, what I heard there is kind of like what I experience.

So you're saying like the challenge is to get to where I am, but that there's more I need to do and I want to know what that looks like. Like I don't attach the guilt to it and I can take responsibility for it. But then what's the next step up?

Peter: 00:34:03

I. I got a little lost. So what do you.

Ryan: 00:34:04

What, so we're back to talking about me.

Peter: 00:34:08

I was about to bring it back there anyway.

Ryan: 00:34:10

But so acknowledging that there's some underlying conditioning. Right. To address. And when you're talking about you and your conditioning and your, your historical trauma, what. What is it called?

Peter: 00:34:24

Legacy.

Ryan: 00:34:24

Legacy trauma. That the key step is to accept the responsibility for the activity but not attach guilt to it.

Peter: 00:34:34

Right.

Ryan: 00:34:34

Not. Not turning inward judgment.

Peter: 00:34:36

Right, Right.

Ryan: 00:34:37

But I feel like that's where I am with my conditioning. Like whatever conditioning I'm dealing with, it's not. I can accept the responsibility for it and I'm not turning it internally.

So what's the next step to dealing with conditioning? Because I expect that that's probably not the end of how you deal with conditioning. Right?

Peter: 00:34:59

Yeah. So I'm not sure. So from where I am right now, I'm thinking I'm not thinking of conditioning as conditioned behavior.

I'm thinking of conditioning as, you know, the psychic burdens that are causing the conditioned behavior.

And so I think, because it's what I'm doing, what I would say is you have to come into contact with the burdens that are causing the conditioned behavior. What are the origins of the conditioning? What are the origins of the conditioning? That's the question. So to your point. Right.

So you observed this conditioning expressing itself in angry behavior, but you haven't been able to articulate. Yeah. Exactly. What it is because as, as I think you're.

Well, maybe you didn't point it out, but obviously, as you know, not everyone would be as angry in the same circumstance.

Ryan: 00:36:03

Right. Yep.

Peter: 00:36:04

And so why was it triggering to you? That's, that's the question. And that's interesting. It's interesting that you bring that up because I didn't remember that.

And this is what I was going to say before was, ah, God, I forgot about that, man. If you had told me then that you were like in fundamental being, I would have been like, yeah, like, what are you talking about?

Of course, neither one of us knew anything on our radar about this stuff, but yeah, interesting. But what's the. So the big question is, are you seriously try telling me that one time in ten years you had. You got triggered.

Ryan: 00:36:49

No, but the trigger is the same. This is. So I was doing the trigger journal originally, right?

Peter: 00:36:55

Oh yeah, yeah.

Ryan: 00:36:56

And I only. What I think I put like less than a handful of triggers down because it wasn't the frequency. It was like the same thing. Right.

The same kind of trigger.

Peter: 00:37:09

Right, right.

Ryan: 00:37:10

And what I would say, whatever that trigger is, is pointing back to whatever it is that I can't see.

Peter: 00:37:17

Right.

Ryan: 00:37:17

That you're talking.

Peter: 00:37:18

Right.

Ryan: 00:37:18

That's the root cause, whatever it is that causes me to. Because the, the, the physiological and the emotional reaction is the same. It's a frustration. There's a frustration about something that I see.

Somebody wants something that's. That their actions aren't aligning with. And that is frustrating to me. But why? I don't know.

Peter: 00:37:42

So, so this has the same flavor to me as the multi thread model and some people having many threads and some people having only one thread or to, you know, he says hypothetically or I don't know, maybe he knows people who have only one thread. But it's uncommon. Right. And I think about what kind of triggers and conditioning do I have? And they're pretty different, right. So I have.

Outwardly, I have a lot of outwardly directed anger. And I have a lot of inwardly directed guilt and criticism as well. You know, it's not just one.

And I probably have other stuff too, but those are the obvious ones for me. And so you're saying, oh, you just have this one type of trigger. I'm like, it seems that way. So maybe that is. Maybe.

But I mean, maybe that's the difference is that just like with the multi thread model, if, if you didn't have the multi thread model, having a single thread experience wouldn't really make a lot of sense like in most traditions or rather, if your thread weren't either emptiness or oneness or I guess maybe psyche, then you'd be completely lost. Right, right.

And so maybe in terms of, you know, the way we come into contact with conditioning in the ideas and teaching that we, we work with, the fact that you have only one specific, you know, I mean, maybe it's so weird and so hard to deal with because most people have multiple and you have only one and that just doesn't. It's not a common model. And so it's very hard to wrap your head around or to identify or work with. Right.

So it's interesting that maybe Pierce's model can opens a little.

Ryan: 00:39:43

Yeah.

Peter: 00:39:44

Insight on that.

Ryan: 00:39:45

But yeah, it's weird, but I think that you definitely are touching on something as far as kind of like my quality geek, the root cause kind of thing. Right. That underlying. There's something underlying that's driving what I outwardly observe.

Peter: 00:40:01

But I think more than that, what's interesting is that not only is there something underlying, but there's something some like major masking. It's something that's significantly obscuring it more than typically. Right. Because, you know, like, oh, you need to do some shadow work.

It's like, oh, you know, it doesn't. Doesn't work because, yeah, I don't even know how exactly.

So that kind of points towards an area that I want to explore more, which we mentioned earlier. I mean, we talked about internal family systems, I think multiple times because it's one of my major models that I work with.

But now I've been getting more into it and so maybe that's something that we could look at together because reading the textbook, he says, you know, now as you learn internal family systems, you should practice it with your friends and family. And I'm like, really? You really want me to practice internal family systems with my family? I don't know.

That doesn't sound like it's going to go well. But yeah, maybe it's something we could play with or we. You could read the book. Personally, I found the book really interesting.

I mean, I think it's, it's, it's just well written.

The introduction is a very interesting historical sequence of how it was developed and, and touches on things like the rise of systems thinking in the 70s, which I was not really aware of.

Anybody points it out that, you know, before that people were very mechanistic or thought ideas, thought leaders were very mechanistic around how they looked at problems. And there would be like, it was reductionist approaches like, oh, if we take this apart into its parts, then we can understand exactly how it works.

Ryan: 00:41:54

Right.

Peter: 00:41:54

You know, the watchmaker kind of attitude. We'll just take part, just lay out all the parts and I'll tell you exactly what's going on.

And in the 70s, and systems theory, or thinking, whatever it was, the rise of ecology as, as a science and the understanding of interdependence in, in a scientific way.

Ryan: 00:42:17

Right.

Peter: 00:42:18

You know, not in the Buddhist traditional way. And so. Yeah, so I found a very interesting story. And then, you know, as you get into the practices, there's. I just think they're really interesting.

The case studies aren't. I mean, you see this in self help books a lot where like there's some theory and there's some examples or case studies or whatnot.

And in the past I find these kinds of things really dry and really hard to read.

And this one I just really like, but also might be because I've been working in that modality for a while, so it's as more like, oh, now I get to see how this whole thing actually works.

And now I, you know, like, oh, this is what they're talking about where I've been kind of like doing exercises without really knowing why they work, you know, or how they were discovered.

Ryan: 00:43:08

Yeah.

Peter: 00:43:09

So I don't know whether you would find it as easy to read as I am, but I'm finding it really, really kind of engrossing. So it's a possibility. Obviously there's a number of possibilities for how we might explore it. So we can just put that in the, in the hopper.

Ryan: 00:43:27

Yeah.

Peter: 00:43:28

Something to do.

Ryan: 00:43:28

Be interesting to get at this thing.

Peter: 00:43:32

Yeah. I mean, okay. Yes. Specifically if you wanted to do the work. I actually want to learn too. Guide the work. And that's. Yeah. So, yeah, I'd love it. Yeah.

I'm not sure how, I'm not sure what time frame is right. Actually, I want, I would want to talk to my mentor. It's like, okay, how do I, how do I go? But good news for you is I do have a bad tour.

Ryan: 00:43:57

That's true.

Peter: 00:43:58

Because that's the other thing. Oh, no, that was part of the teaching. So I did a mini workshop on, on one, on one teaching.

And one of the things was, so if you're going to work with people one on one, you want to make sure you have a mentor. So if you run into stuff you can't deal with, you, you know who to talk to. And I do.

Ryan: 00:44:20

So anyway, sounds good. All right. Till next time.

Peter: 00:44:24

All right. Very good. Thanks a lot. Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast. Join us next time as we continue the discussion.

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