G-K0F4D5MY2P Navigating the Spectrum of Awareness: Insights from Tracking Wisdom - Tracking Wisdom

Episode 13

Navigating the Spectrum of Awareness: Insights from Tracking Wisdom

Tracking Wisdom

Season 1 Episode 13

Navigating the Spectrum of Awareness: Insights from Tracking Wisdom

Recorded - 09/30/24

This podcast episode delves into the intricate distinctions between brain, mind, awareness, and consciousness, as discussed by Ryan and Peter. The conversation is sparked by Ryan's contemplation of a meditation that encourages listeners to explore the nature of the observer within themselves. They examine how the left and right hemispheres of the brain interact and contribute to our understanding of these concepts, with Ryan proposing a hierarchy of experience that leads from the biological to the metaphysical. Peter shares his perspective, emphasizing the importance of shifting attention from conditioned experiences to fundamental well-being. Throughout the discussion, they navigate the complexities of language surrounding these topics, aiming to clarify their terms for meaningful dialogue.

Takeaways:

  • The distinction between brain, mind, awareness, and consciousness is crucial for deeper understanding.
  • Awareness and consciousness are often used interchangeably, but they represent different concepts.
  • The left brain focuses on rational thought, while the right brain embodies holistic perception.
  • Meditative practices can lead to insights about the observer and the nature of awareness.
  • Exploring the layers of experience can help clarify spiritual and philosophical concepts.
  • The dialogue emphasizes the importance of shared terminology for meaningful discussions on consciousness.

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Transcript
Peter:

Welcome back.

Peter:

Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution.

Peter:

They are for informational and entertainment purposes only.

Peter:

Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the tracking Wisdom podcast.

Ryan:

Good morning, everybody.

Ryan:

I'm Ryan.

Peter:

I'm Peter.

Ryan:

We are back for another episode of the tracking Wisdom podcast.

Ryan:

Thank you for joining us today.

Ryan:

I had a topic I wanted to discuss that I've been thinking about over the past week or so, and I'm going to blindside Peter here.

Ryan:

So disclaimer that anything Peter thinks or does has been, is off the cuff and not planned in any way.

Ryan:

So what I have written down here and what I wanted to talk about, what, what drew me to this was a meditation that I had listened to around basically kind of finding the observer, finding awareness.

Ryan:

It was framed specifically as the observer.

Ryan:

And what was interesting to me was the concept.

Ryan:

The practice was you get into a meditative state, and then you investigate and find the observer, and then you go deeper and find the thing that's observing that essence.

Ryan:

And what came to mind.

Ryan:

And so the idea that I'm bringing here specifically was around, I guess it's related to terminology, for one thing.

Ryan:

But I had some ideas around it, which was the difference between brain, mind, awareness and consciousness.

Ryan:

Okay.

Ryan:

And I'm going to give some context on what I was thinking.

Ryan:

So that's sort of the idea that I want to bring to this episode, and we'll get right into it.

Ryan:

So, as a secondary disclaimer, or if anybody who has been listening for some time understands that my process, my path that resonates with me is this sort of organic consumption and contemplative practices around different ideas related to spirituality, religion, consciousness, et cetera, et cetera.

Ryan:

And so what I'm offering here is specifically more of a philosophical or contemplative thought experiment around these things.

Ryan:

It's not intended to be authoritative or based, really, in any sort of scientific way.

Ryan:

But what I did want to talk about slightly, even though we haven't finished it, is a little bit of the Ian McGilchrist master and his emissary book that we've been working on.

Ryan:

And the basically collating a little bit of where the ideas he shares about left brain and right brain and where that falls in to these terms that I'm looking to offer some clarity or base of what I think about it.

Ryan:

And I'm happy to hear your thoughts as well.

Ryan:

So the first thing that I was thinking of is the ego, which you seem to favor.

Ryan:

The condition bind right as being sort of the brain.

Ryan:

Like, this is the first level of interaction with the material world.

Ryan:

And it's based, you know, fight and flight and survival.

Ryan:

And the ideas of scarcity lack things like that.

Ryan:

And so the idea when we're trying to find the observer and pursue things like awakening and spiritual development is to get out of that mindset or that realm of experience, which I'm calling or referencing as kind of the brain, the biological.

Ryan:

This is the mechanism that is designed within the interface.

Ryan:

If we're gonna coin a Hoffman type phrase.

Ryan:

Donald Hoffman.

Ryan:

Awesome.

Ryan:

You should check it out.

Ryan:

So the second level, and this is where the alignment with master and his emissary isn't really clean.

Ryan:

But I like the idea about it, which is so I'm thinking like left brain narrative, ego, thought, intellect, all that being sort of that first level brain condition mind thing.

Ryan:

And that when we start to go deeper and we recognize that there's a sense of an observer, but it's really kind of a false observer or pseudo observer, it's not awareness, but there's something transient within that journey that seems like it could be the observer.

Ryan:

And I think, or what I was thinking was that there was some level of connection with the right brain, non communicative essence.

Ryan:

And I was calling that the mind.

Ryan:

And where it really falls apart a bit is that there's clearly an interaction between the left brain and right brain mechanisms.

Ryan:

And that the right brain has.

Ryan:

And this is all based off of McGill Christ's work, that the right brain is relational and identifying sort of those threats, it's not necessarily thinking about them, but it's trying to identify you and me and assess where we are.

Ryan:

Is this.

Ryan:

Is that correct?

Ryan:

Am I misquoting that?

Ryan:

That was my understanding that the left brain was more tactile and mechanical.

Ryan:

We were trying to like manipulate things.

Ryan:

And then the right brain was social and trying to define friend versus foe, I think.

Peter:

So keep on going.

Ryan:

So within that context, obviously the left brain and right brain are functioning together within this intellectual egoic structure.

Ryan:

But I was considering that maybe part of that first level, that thing that somebody might see or experience in meditative practices as the observer.

Ryan:

But it's really kind of not the actual observer still within the realm of the brain and the material.

Ryan:

And that it is then going beyond that where we find the true observer.

Ryan:

And I'm calling that awareness.

Ryan:

And then even beyond that, I'm calling consciousness, which would be like.

Ryan:

So I was calling awareness, sort of the true observer, the self, the higher self, whatever.

Ryan:

And then consciousness being the source, the God, the essence, the divine tapestry of which everything is woven.

Ryan:

So it's like this hierarchy, but not hierarchy as in value hierarchy, but like the onion, you know, we're peeling away layers of experience that move down through the biological and material into more of a metaphysical.

Peter:

So I definitely think in the same terms, but in a less complex structure.

Peter:

So I constantly think about, well, not constantly, but I mean if I'm going to talk about these things, I will frame it.

Peter:

The way I think about it is in the framework of McGillchrist and Hoffman, just as you said, and but much more simplistically thinking about left brain verbal activity and rationalistic approach and right brain holistic perception.

Peter:

So basically I attribute non dual experiences to the right.

Peter:

And that, I mean, I think the thing that is most important to me is that the left brain doesn't believe in the right brain, but the right brain understands the holistic concept of left and right brain functions, even though I mean, it understands whatever that means.

Peter:

Right air quotes understands because it can't talk about it.

Peter:

But it's that inclusive perception and acceptance.

Peter:

And so for me, even when I start to talk about that, I immediately feel the shift.

Peter:

And I immediately feel like I'm leaning very heavily towards fundamental well being and just using words to kind of report out the experience as opposed to, oh, now I'm thinking about.

Peter:

Now I'm reasoning about it, right?

Ryan:

Sure.

Peter:

It's more a sense of experiencing it and reporting it out then of, well, let me describe how I think it works.

Peter:

So I don't make the distinction between awareness and consciousness.

Peter:

So I'm interested in this, excuse me, what you're, you know, what you're describing there, because I think, I'm not confused by it.

Peter:

I think it's interesting.

Peter:

I'd like to explore that more, but the way that I have been talking about it is just much simpler.

Peter:

Just oh, the left hemisphere is the part of our brain that can deal with, or I guess, embodies this linguistic and rationalistic approach.

Peter:

And the right brain is, as you said, relationship, holistic, nonverbal, non rational, intuitive.

Peter:

And I just left it at that.

Peter:

And so it's like, oh, I guess the other thing is this, the experience of looking into or examining awareness, examining consciousness and finding this inclusivity of the conditioned and the rational and what am I thinking?

Peter:

So, so I think that's why I think of it more simply, I guess, as just oh, when I, when I shift my focus or shift my way of experience from the conventional rational mind or conditioned experience, when I shift it from that to fundamental well being or the unconditioned.

Peter:

I believe that I'm allowing my right hemisphere to take over the process.

Peter:

Whereas most of the time we are believing the left hemisphere because it's the loudest voice, because it's the only voice which actually I want to follow up on.

Peter:

It's the loudest voice.

Peter:

It's the one that could reason and say, well, this is the way it is.

Peter:

So we believe it, that it's the only thing that's going on, it's the only game in town.

Peter:

It's the only thing that's real, that that's reality.

Peter:

What the left hemisphere tells us.

Peter:

And, you know, our experiences that are spooky or weird, right.

Peter:

Come from the right side and the left side just says, yeah, that's not real.

Peter:

Right.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

And this is a recurring topic of conversation is the common inability to accept weird experiences.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

This rejection of like that's just strange.

Peter:

That's just, you know, that just kind of refusal to deal with it.

Peter:

Right.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Ryan:

The predominance of, to the rationalism.

Ryan:

Just like to the left.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

So, okay, I just lost my train of thought.

Peter:

So I don't know if this losing the train of thought sometimes I say sometimes attribute it to, oh, okay, I just got kind of shifted too far over to right brain function or fundamental well being and I went nonverbal.

Peter:

And sometimes I actually believe that and sometimes I think, yeah, I'm just getting old.

Peter:

I forgot what I was talking about.

Peter:

So anyway, I'll stop there.

Ryan:

Well, I mean, there's probably a little bit of both, but I mean, I struggle with it.

Ryan:

You literally said something and I was about to take notes on it and like 2 seconds later I don't even remember what I was gonna write down.

Ryan:

So.

Ryan:

And part of that I think is just shifting, I don't wanna say awareness, like attention.

Ryan:

Like I'm trying to listen to you and think and type at the same time, which is obviously not, that's task switching and that doesn't work well.

Ryan:

So I had a, one of my questions was what's your thought about this sort of false observer or this like intermediary that presents like awareness, but baby.

Peter:

Is still, I have no idea yet.

Ryan:

Okay, this is what I was saying.

Peter:

I was like, I don't think about it that way.

Peter:

I've never thought about it before.

Peter:

So I'd like to hear more about.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

Where this comes from as an idea.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Again, it was the original impetus, but it wasn't what started this train of thought.

Ryan:

Was that meditation?

Ryan:

What was it called?

Ryan:

I'll link it for people, but from off the top of my head, it was something like, I don't know, like, awaken in, like, five minutes or, you know, something click baity.

Peter:

But guided meditation.

Ryan:

But the.

Ryan:

The meditation itself, the person who was speaking, it.

Ryan:

It wasn't present.

Ryan:

It's not like a formal meditation.

Ryan:

It was like a person who, at least on the face of it, appears to be experiencing these things, trying to just say, go through this, like, process, and you will find the thing you're looking for.

Ryan:

And so I was just listening to it because I was curious, like, what it was that he was sharing.

Ryan:

And I found that I had never considered this deeper thing where, you know, started off.

Ryan:

And, of course, I'm paraphrasing and probably paraphrasing terribly, because I did watch this a while ago, but started off meditatively, you know, with breathing and relaxing and kind of getting into a mental state that's conducive to exploring this.

Ryan:

And then brought up the idea of maybe it was something along the lines of, like, witnessing your thoughts.

Ryan:

Right.

Ryan:

And what is it that's witnessing the thoughts?

Ryan:

Like, trying to find and see and experience that, of course, see as, you know, a proverbial see.

Ryan:

And then was like, now, what is it that is observing the observation of the thoughts, which was kind of was an interesting consideration.

Ryan:

I hadn't really thought of that.

Ryan:

That first kind of layer of what's observing my thoughts isn't necessarily awareness itself.

Peter:

Oh, okay.

Ryan:

And that.

Ryan:

And then this is me now kind of jumping off of that with my own thoughts and trying to collate all the things.

Ryan:

And, you know, like my organic process and thinking, well, that's still part of the mind, then, or part of the brain, part of the ego, part of the intellectual structure that while it's not narrative, I'm talking about the false awareness, it's not narrative, which gives it the appearance of the observer, of the awareness, but it, too, is still a function of that.

Ryan:

And then I started thinking, oh, well, is that the left brain and right thing.

Ryan:

Thing.

Ryan:

Thing.

Ryan:

Because, of course, we're kind of working through the in McGillchrist thing.

Ryan:

So that came to mind.

Ryan:

I was like.

Ryan:

And that's when I started wanting to put more definitive terms around it.

Ryan:

Why?

Ryan:

What's the value in that?

Ryan:

Well, I think, number one, these terms are frequently used interchangeably, which creates confusion.

Ryan:

And I'm not suggesting that my definitions are the correct ones or the end all be all, but I guess along the lines of Donald Hoffman's pursuit of wanting to put something specific around.

Ryan:

Of course, my work is nowhere near his.

Ryan:

But, you know, what are these terms?

Ryan:

What does it mean?

Ryan:

And is there a difference?

Ryan:

Is there a layer?

Ryan:

Because I feel like oftentimes it's a very one or two dimensional discussion and experience, and that it's very likely, in fact, you know, Hoffman's work kind of speaks to it, that there is perpetual deeper layers of truth as we go deeper and deeper.

Ryan:

And I guess that also speaks to the continuum of Jeffrey Martin's fundamental well being.

Ryan:

Continuum, where the deeper you go, the experience is very different.

Peter:

So, so let me go back and clarify.

Peter:

So you listen to this guided meditation kind of thing.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Peter:

It was a video of a guy talking.

Ryan:

Yes.

Peter:

Is that.

Ryan:

That's what essentially.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

And, and then you followed along with his guidance and you did what he was doing.

Peter:

Is that I did.

Ryan:

But this all came well after, like, that didn't, like, then be like, oh, my God, all this, you know, this happened just a few days ago when I was.

Ryan:

It just came to mind.

Peter:

So, so my question is, when you started working this out, were you processing your experience?

Peter:

Were you processing his description?

Ryan:

Probably processing his description.

Peter:

Interesting.

Peter:

I mean, interesting that I could ask that question, because one of.

Peter:

So, okay, you know, I still hate sounding.

Peter:

I hate the idea of being misconstrued, and I hate the idea of sounding conceded or something.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

Whatever.

Peter:

Just being misunderstood.

Peter:

So with that as a.

Peter:

As a disclaimer, a caveat, I'm just gonna say what I.

Peter:

That what I'm finding I do.

Peter:

So most of what I do nowadays when I'm not, like, just consuming YouTube, whatever, is talking to people about their experiences and I.

Peter:

And sharing mine.

Peter:

And some of this is very mundane.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

It's very.

Peter:

It's like, you know, I'm struggling with the kids, you know, whatever.

Peter:

But then it's also, what's my experience of awareness, consciousness or whatever.

Peter:

And, and so, for me, most of my work in this area is just focused on my own experience.

Peter:

Like, I'm doing much less consumption around this.

Peter:

And so, and so what I'm trying to articulate most of the time is my own experience.

Peter:

And so my, my, so my idea of the layers, because I was gonna say something before about the terminology.

Peter:

Oh, let me back up for a second.

Peter:

So you were talking about you wanting, basically, you creating some new definitions to have useful conversation.

Peter:

And, and I want to commend that or whatever.

Peter:

Or, you know, because you're kind of putting a disclaimer and like, oh, I'm not saying, these are the best definitions.

Peter:

I agree with your effort that it's very useful to sit down to a conversation and say, let me lay out some terms.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

This is how I'm going to use them.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

And it's not saying this is what this means now.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

And it's not saying every time I talk about this, this is how I, I never use this word in any other sense that I'm describing right now.

Peter:

But it's laying out a working terminology for the discussion at hand.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

Which I think is an extremely valid exercise to do to frame a conversation as opposed to just jumping in and using some words and assuming that the other person is thinking about the word the way you think about it, because we've all had those experiences, especially if you're in this, in this kind of frame of discussion.

Peter:

So I think it is valid and very useful to have a kind of a working lexicon for the conversation at hand.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

And that we're not trying to say this is the way everybody should talk about these things or these are the only meanings these words should have.

Peter:

It's just like, just for this conversation.

Ryan:

Yep.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

And then I guess the layers, my thought of this layer, having.

Peter:

Not, having, not thought about the layers, but thinking about my experience of going deeper is that I see it as not as distinct layers or distinct functions, but just as a shift in attention from, you could say, left hemisphere to right hemisphere or from conditioned experience to unconditioned experience or from thinking to experiencing.

Peter:

And so it's a shift.

Peter:

So for me it's very vague.

Peter:

It's a vague continuum.

Peter:

It's all right.

Peter:

So the image that immediately comes to mind for me is, I was trite, actually, now that I think about it, because I'm like, this image is coalescing as I speak.

Peter:

It's like, okay, the moon and the clouds, right?

Peter:

Or the sun and the clouds or the sky and the clouds, but basically this something solid and real with something laid over it that seems very real.

Peter:

And then the thing starts to dissolve and become more cloudy.

Peter:

The front thing, the thing that is in our awareness or the thing that has our attention starts to dissolve and become more cloudy and more transparent.

Peter:

And you get to the point where you can see, you have a clear perception of the shape of the thing behind, but you can still see the cloud in front of it.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

And what did I just say?

Peter:

You have a click.

Peter:

You can clearly see the shape, which is to say, it's not that you have a perfectly clear view or clear understanding of the thing behind.

Peter:

It's just you can discern it.

Peter:

Right, right.

Peter:

You have a distinct impression of it.

Peter:

Not that it's clear understanding of it.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

And so, and that's the way I think that describes my experience is that as I shift, I can get fairly quickly to the point where I have a distinct impression of fundamental being.

Peter:

Like, oh, now I feel very different than I did when I started talking.

Peter:

And.

Peter:

Which is a nice experience.

Peter:

It's reassuring because I actually had an attack of skepticism sometime this week.

Ryan:

Really?

Peter:

Yeah, really.

Peter:

It was really weird.

Peter:

Yeah.

Ryan:

It's been a while since it was very strange.

Peter:

I don't I don't remember exactly what triggered it, but I remember having it and I remember being very uncomfortable.

Ryan:

So skepticism that you experienced fundamental being.

Peter:

Yeah.

Ryan:

In general or of your experience of it?

Peter:

Oh, no.

Peter:

My experience.

Ryan:

Yeah, yeah.

Peter:

And yeah.

Peter:

I don't know.

Peter:

I was feeling very, very egoic.

Peter:

So.

Peter:

But so anyway, so I don't personally have any clear idea of distinct layers.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

I only have this idea of moving from not having my attention on the thing behind.

Peter:

I'm not having my attention on awareness versus having my attention on awareness.

Peter:

Oh, yeah.

Peter:

Oh.

Peter:

Or fundamental being.

Peter:

And so here's something in my mind that in terms of terminology, I'm not very clear with myself.

Peter:

And I shifted between awareness, consciousness and fundamental being, which is not a very useful way to talk, I think, even for myself in my own hands.

Peter:

But I do tend to use them interchangeably, not thinking that they're all the same.

Peter:

I think they connote different aspects of the same thing.

Peter:

So I guess I tend to use attention for the changing thing more than awareness.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

The change.

Peter:

The attention is the thing that you direct from one thing to another or from one experience to another experience.

Peter:

And the awareness, I really tend to equate awareness and consciousness.

Peter:

And why is that?

Peter:

I think that's really because of the context I've actually been working and training in and the circles I've been traveling in.

Peter:

People talk about like mindfulness meditation, people talk about awareness in a much less distinct and specific way.

Peter:

In fact, my perception has been that, well, again, because I'm a teacher, it's a teaching program that I'm in.

Peter:

And people are talking about these things very vaguely, almost as if they don't really want to get into it.

Peter:

And I think that to some extent that's true because they're teaching people to teach meditation.

Peter:

They're not teaching people to teach awakening.

Ryan:

Sure.

Peter:

So they're referencing awakening, but they're not really getting into it.

Peter:

And I think for that reason it's very vague and it's like basically if, you know, you know, kind of, kind of attitude.

Peter:

So I guess that's probably why I am being vague with myself.

Ryan:

Sure.

Peter:

It's like this is my kind of environment right now.

Peter:

So I'm interested in this perception of distinction layers because that seems quite alien to my experience.

Peter:

And even in terms of, well, okay, so this has been a shift in my thinking because as you know, when, when we started getting into finders, I was kind of obsessed with this continuum and with locations.

Ryan:

Right?

Peter:

Like, oh, I need, I need to be that location.

Peter:

And I never think about that anymore.

Peter:

It's really weird now that to say that.

Peter:

Yeah, it's like, wow, I really don't care.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

Which is, I guess that means I've shifted locations.

Peter:

Quite possible, you know, at least I've shifted, I've shifted layers within whatever location I'm talking from.

Peter:

So to come back to the topic of the day, which is, I think, is this idea really of layers?

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

And so you're, I think applying, well, brain, mind, awareness, consciousness were the terms you want to use.

Peter:

And you're applying those two layers of awakening or experience or, I mean, are they even equivalent?

Peter:

Are they even on the same spectrum?

Peter:

Like his brain on the same spectrum of.

Ryan:

I think of them more like an organism where there's the full body and then you move down into mechanical parts and then you move down into, you know, cellular structure and down into proteins, that they are all holistically part of the thing, but that they can also be referenced within their specific focal points.

Peter:

So there are levels of organization.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Ryan:

And when I think of layers or when I was using the onion metaphor, which brings me just for context, that what started this thought was actually from the book I'm writing where I went into.

Ryan:

So it's a fictional book, but the idea that was being presented in the book was that there are.

Ryan:

The metaphor was essentially an onion.

Ryan:

And you peel away a layer and become embodied and understanding and experiential of a truth.

Ryan:

But as soon as you come to that term, come to that acceptance, so to speak, there's yet another deeper, more fundamental truth that's available for discovery.

Ryan:

And that that is a vertical kind of metaphor versus like a linear metaphor.

Ryan:

And when you were talking about what was coming to mind as a metaphor and using the clouds in the skydehe the moon or the sun, what was coming to me was like the spectrum of light where it's all blended like we articulate red and blue.

Ryan:

But those are all arbitrary.

Ryan:

And in truth, it's an infinite blend.

Ryan:

And that's what I kind of perceive.

Ryan:

I don't necessarily, when I'm thinking about it, think of it as distinct, like floors on a building that, like in a building, and you ride the elevator, you're moving through these deeper truths and deeper understanding, and that there is a fundamental truth, which I'm calling consciousness, which is that.

Ryan:

That thing.

Ryan:

But I do, and I shared this in a previous episode, I think there's a difference between awareness and consciousness.

Ryan:

And I do recognize they get used frequently, interchangeably, but intuitively, I intuit that there's a difference there.

Ryan:

I don't think it's really important.

Ryan:

Like, if you're not inclined to go down that road, I don't think it's something that's super important.

Ryan:

But it is a distinction for me that I feel inclined to contemplate.

Ryan:

And because intuitively I feel like there is a difference there.

Ryan:

And so what I kind of question myself or challenge myself to think about is what is the difference?

Ryan:

Where is the difference between awareness and consciousness?

Ryan:

And so as part of that, this all kind of morph.

Peter:

So I think it's interesting to make the distinction between awareness and consciousness.

Peter:

Well, as I said, it's interesting to have a terminology for the conversation at hand.

Peter:

And it's just, it's just hard to, again, it's all about the conversation at hand.

Peter:

And for that purpose, you set aside other meanings of the word.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

You just agree.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

This is what we're going to talk, use mean by consciousness.

Ryan:

Yes.

Peter:

So my tendency is, and I think this is deeply influenced by Hoffman to make.

Peter:

Well, because Hoffman literally says consciousness is fundamental prime or primal or fundamental essential.

Peter:

And so I do.

Peter:

Now, I tend to use that word, capital c, meaning the ultimate, and awareness as it could be that, but, okay, so I guess one, a big question is, when we talk of awakening, awakening experiences, are we.

Peter:

So if we take a moment, we say, sink into fundamental mental well being and we try to come into contact with consciousness or.

Peter:

Yeah, I'll just put it that way, come into contact with consciousness.

Peter:

I would say when we do that, we can look directly at some aspect of capital C consciousness.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

The aspect to which we currently have access.

Ryan:

Yes.

Peter:

Now, it's not the whole elephant.

Peter:

Right, right.

Peter:

It's just the part that we're touching at the moment.

Peter:

At the moment.

Peter:

And from this body, mind, age.

Peter:

And so what am I trying to get.

Peter:

Get out here.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

So I guess I'm trying to get at how I want to.

Peter:

I use the word consciousness to mean the ultimate.

Peter:

And if I am experiencing that, or if I'm.

Peter:

If I'm moving, turning towards that, what is it that I'm experiencing?

Peter:

And the answer is, I think I'm experiencing what I'm able to experience from my current context.

Peter:

So I'm experiencing the unconditioned through my conditions, okay.

Peter:

Because I am still alive.

Peter:

Therefore, I cannot possibly be free of conditions, because being physical is condition.

Peter:

Time, space time is a conditional phenomenon, according to Hoffman.

Ryan:

Yes.

Peter:

So, yes.

Ryan:

Do you then.

Ryan:

So I think I understand what you're saying as far as not being able to be free of conditions.

Ryan:

But at the same time, the idea that consciousness or awareness is not the biological, is it actually susceptible to conditions, like in its true essence?

Peter:

No.

Peter:

No.

Peter:

It's what I call the unconditioned.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

But we can't have.

Peter:

This is what I was saying about the aspect of consciousness that we can experience.

Peter:

We can't experience total consciousness.

Peter:

We can't experience the unconditioned.

Peter:

Absolutely.

Peter:

Because we're constrained by our physical bodies.

Peter:

We are constrained by physical, material existence.

Peter:

So we can get a clearer and clearer focus on consciousness, on the unconditional.

Peter:

See, it's hard because experientially, that's not the way I experience it, but it's not.

Peter:

I don't know if it's true.

Peter:

That's not the way I experience it.

Peter:

It's not the way I report it out.

Peter:

When I describe my experience.

Peter:

And I think.

Peter:

I think what I experience is a sense of something infinite.

Peter:

I don't think it's true that I may directly experience.

Peter:

This is really complicated.

Peter:

I mean, I'm uncomfortable saying it one way.

Peter:

I'm uncomfortable saying it another way.

Peter:

So I was gonna say, I don't think I have a direct experience of the infinite.

Peter:

And when I say that, it sounds completely wrong.

Ryan:

Mm hmm.

Peter:

Because when I experience it, I feel like I'm having a direct experience of the infinite.

Peter:

It's.

Peter:

It's not a complete experience of the infant.

Peter:

Yeah, I.

Peter:

So I feel like.

Peter:

Yeah, I feel like I can have a direct experience of something that is infinite, but it's not a complete.

Peter:

In other words, it's not an infinite experience.

Peter:

That makes sense.

Ryan:

I think so.

Peter:

It makes sense.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

So when I say consciousness, I mean, and mostly, when I think of consciousness, the word or use the word consciousness, I'm thinking of it as this absolute, this infinite, unconditional awareness I think of as.

Peter:

I mean, it's hard because all these words have both nouns and for noun forms.

Peter:

And verbs.

Ryan:

Well, that's right.

Ryan:

I was gonna say I think of consciousness as a noun and awareness.

Ryan:

More like a verb.

Peter:

Right, exactly.

Ryan:

Well, where the awareness is the awareness, observation of the noun.

Peter:

So an awareness, but not, would you say an awareness of consciousness?

Peter:

Yes, yes.

Peter:

Because you tune your attention to consciousness.

Peter:

This is why I'm describing.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

So awareness.

Peter:

You bring things into awareness by turning your attention to them.

Peter:

Okay, so.

Peter:

So that's where you're saying awareness is kind of a step down.

Peter:

It's a step away from consciousness because it's the way that we experience consciousness.

Ryan:

Yes.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

And now I'm with you.

Peter:

I'm with you.

Peter:

And I.

Peter:

And I would agree with that.

Ryan:

And of course, a step away insinuates value, which is not what I'm talking about.

Ryan:

You know, in hierarchy and all that.

Ryan:

Just lethem, they're not the same.

Ryan:

Awareness to me, intuitively, is not conscious.

Ryan:

There's something different.

Peter:

I agree.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

And so then there's attention.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

Which is kind of.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

It's.

Peter:

It's not a hierarchy.

Peter:

It's just different.

Peter:

Right.

Ryan:

Yes.

Peter:

And so attention influences awareness.

Peter:

Consciousness exists regardless.

Peter:

Yes.

Peter:

Awareness shifts according to attention.

Peter:

And you direct your attention using your mind.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

Your mind is.

Peter:

See, I guess I would say.

Peter:

I would think of my mind as being my left bearing function, as being the rational, the thinking part.

Peter:

The mind is that thing that thinks.

Ryan:

So where does the conditioned come in as the same thing?

Peter:

Pretty much.

Peter:

Now.

Peter:

So that was why I thought was interesting about what you were saying about left and right hemisphere both serving conditioning.

Peter:

And I think that's also true.

Peter:

It's just not the way think of it.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

That clearly left and right hemisphere are both influenced by the limbic system.

Peter:

It's not like one of them is.

Peter:

One of them is influenced and the other one's just independent of it.

Peter:

But I think that when we choose to experience things one way or another, then we're shifting our focus from one hemisphere to another, and so.

Peter:

Huh.

Peter:

That'd be interesting.

Peter:

I just.

Peter:

I just thought of doing Jeffrey's kind of awakening research with, you know, in the split brain.

Peter:

In the split brain context.

Peter:

Yeah.

Peter:

And I was thinking, so I think someone can live with only half a brain, right?

Peter:

They can live with only one hemisphere.

Ryan:

Yes.

Peter:

And.

Peter:

But then that hemisphere, I would assume, compensates and takes over functions of the other hemisphere.

Ryan:

That's what.

Ryan:

From the limited information I've gotten through the book, it seems that that's how it works.

Peter:

Okay.

Ryan:

Except language, I guess.

Ryan:

It's very.

Peter:

So if you lose your left hemisphere, you lose your language entirely.

Ryan:

That's what it sounds like, but I haven't read the whole book.

Ryan:

But from anecdotes that I've heard as far as people who have had damaged, number one, that both sides seem to have their own personality to some degree, and they may have very different socio cultural perceptions and orientations.

Ryan:

And as far as I understand from the book, the right hemisphere does not have the capability of language.

Peter:

Right, right.

Peter:

Well, in normal function.

Ryan:

Sure.

Ryan:

Then, does it then?

Peter:

But I think the nature of the brain is always to compensate.

Peter:

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan:

I don't know the answer to that.

Ryan:

But you generally are considering or equating the right brain more with, like, the awareness thing because there was a distinction I was trying to make.

Peter:

There was that not awareness.

Ryan:

Okay.

Peter:

In the way that we just defined it.

Ryan:

Right.

Ryan:

So, so, okay, so, so then tell me about coming.

Peter:

Right from.

Peter:

Coming back from.

Peter:

Well, let's come back from split brain discussion.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

Because that was a bit of a digression.

Peter:

So, okay, so I'm describing a usage of the words consciousness, awareness, attention, mind.

Peter:

And does that align now with the way that you were using them?

Ryan:

Which would the difference being, essentially that you transpose the attention with my description of the mind, I think.

Ryan:

Is that right?

Peter:

I'm not sure that's right.

Peter:

Yeah, that's why I'm asking.

Ryan:

So what am I thinking of?

Ryan:

The mind, maybe so.

Peter:

So, okay, so this is supposed to be a half hour conversation.

Ryan:

No, we're supposed to talk.

Ryan:

We can talk within an hour or so, and then we'll edit it down.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

Because what I'm thinking is, to me, this seems like an entire continuing conversation.

Peter:

And this part that we're doing, that we're able to do today is just getting the freaking terminology down so we can start to have the conversation.

Ryan:

Well, then I have one more question for you, and we'll try and finish up within the next five or ten minutes.

Peter:

Okay.

Ryan:

All right.

Ryan:

Part of my contemplation was around the idea of thought.

Ryan:

And we've talked about thought as being a construct generally of egoic structure and biology and things like that.

Ryan:

And my question comes around sort of divine inspiration, like when people talk about, say, finding purpose or finding a path that aligns with sort of a soul's purpose, if you want to, if you will forgive the sort of new agey terminology, but the idea being that there is activities that one can engage in that support their growth and development spiritually, and we'll just leave it at that.

Ryan:

And then there's the wrangling that comes from the intellectual side and trying to.

Ryan:

This is what I want.

Ryan:

This is the only way it can happen.

Ryan:

And you know what I mean, with that kind of more egoic conditioned thought.

Ryan:

And while the thought is, at least in our past conversation two weeks ago or so, thought being more related to egoic construct, this idea that there's divine thought, or, you know, like.

Ryan:

But I think it's not thinking.

Ryan:

So as I'm going through it, we call it divine thought, but it's more of like an intuition.

Ryan:

And is that intuition divine inspiration?

Ryan:

And somebody might be inclined to call it maybe the Holy Spirit as sort of like this intermediary, helping to bridge a gap between sort of an ultimate reality and the conditioned experience.

Ryan:

So that was another thing that I kind of thought about and Washington unsure of was, if the higher self has no thought, how do we have, like, what is that is.

Ryan:

And I think in part, I may have just answered it, which is it's not specifically thought, but it's more of an intuition, a feeling that aligns in one way or another.

Peter:

So, okay, so you've introduced a whole bunch of language with a lot of coloring to it, which, I mean, so much that some people might even find it triggering.

Ryan:

Sure.

Peter:

You know, given that, you know, we've been trying to engage a audience that, you know, is potentially religiously traumatized.

Peter:

So, I mean, it's very.

Peter:

It's highly colored, which is not to say it's not useful or valid or interesting.

Peter:

So.

Peter:

So I just wanted to say that.

Peter:

And to call it a.

Peter:

I'm going to call it kind of spiritual religious language.

Peter:

Right.

Peter:

Which inherently connotes faith and belief in a specific framework.

Ryan:

Right.

Peter:

Okay.

Peter:

So having said all of that, I think that a term like divine thought is an effort to legitimize a discussion of the unconditioned by co opting the term thought to make it more valid, like, with the recognition that our culture worships thought, essentially.

Peter:

That's the whole point, right.

Peter:

Is that we worship the rational mind in order to talk, consider worshiping the divine, you know, just to some extent, it's very useful to make that seem legitimate by putting it.

Peter:

Putting it in the traffic.

Peter:

So.

Peter:

So that's what I would say about that.

Peter:

I wouldn't for a moment interpret it as being literal use of the word thought.

Ryan:

No.

Ryan:

That's an interesting way to frame that.

Peter:

I mean.

Peter:

I mean, even the idea of the mind of God is kind of crazy.

Peter:

I mean, it's an obvious anthropomorphism of this thing.

Peter:

God itself is an anthropomorphism of the thing that can be, you know, and it's all of these language choices are an effort to make people who are uncomfortable be more comfortable.

Peter:

Right, right.

Peter:

So if.

Peter:

If these were people, if the people you were talking to had direct experience of turning awareness towards consciousness as the absolute, if they had direct experience of that, you wouldn't be using these words.

Ryan:

That's a great point.

Peter:

So.

Ryan:

Yeah, no, that's a great point.

Ryan:

Thank you.

Ryan:

That was good.

Ryan:

I think that was absolutely a great place to end.

Ryan:

This was an interesting discussion.

Ryan:

Thank you once again for allowing me to wallop you over the head out of.

Peter:

No, I really enjoy this.

Peter:

I honestly, I want to put a pin on this and make this a recurring segment.

Ryan:

All right, sounds good.

Peter:

I would like to explore this kind of conversation more specifically, more awesome.

Ryan:

Awesome.

Ryan:

Well, if you enjoyed this, leave comments and engage in the conversation with us.

Ryan:

We'd be happy to hear your perspectives and continue the discussion with us.

Ryan:

Follow us on social media and links will be in descriptions and show notes for the master and his emissary as well as the reference meditation that I discussed.

Ryan:

Thank you all for joining.

Ryan:

We'll see you next time.

Peter:

Thank you for listening to the tracking Wisdom podcast.

Peter:

Join us next time as we continue the discussion.

Peter:

Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, and visit www.

Peter:

Dot Eth dash studio.com for more information and content.

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